CMO Series EP173 - Laura Klysz of Simmons & Simmons on The Power of Storytelling in Legal Marketing

Alistair: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series podcast where we discuss all things marketing, business development in the world of professional services. Creative storytelling is essential for law firms to stand out, humanize their brand and build deeper connections with clients and prospects. But on today's episode of the CMO Series podcast, we're joined by the wonderful Laura Klysz, CMO at Simmons and Simmons. Laura will be sharing with us why storytelling is so critical in legal marketing and what industries outside of law can teach us about creativity and thought leadership. She'll also take us behind the scenes of the ‘Year Ahead’ campaign, its innovative approach, the internal challenges she faced, and also some unexpected results. Plus, she'll give us a little bit of a sneak peek into what's next for the campaign.

Charlie: The CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle, the creators of CrossPitch AI, which makes cross-selling happen. Switch it on and try it today by visiting passle.net. Now back to the podcast. 

Alistair: Welcome, Laura.

Laura: Oh, thank you so much for having me. 

Alistair: Oh, absolutely thrilled. I know that we've been building toward this for a little while now and everybody being incredibly busy, particularly you at the start of the year with this campaign has meant that we're sort of recording in April, but very, very excited for it. So to kick us off, the first question, you've had ultimately a very impressive journey to becoming CMO at Simmons and Simmons. How have your experiences shaped the way you approach storytelling in your marketing campaigns?

Laura: Well, I think working in professional services, which is essentially a people-to-people business and working in partnership structures as well, means that you really need to connect with your stakeholders on a personal level. And throughout my career, I've learned that actually being vulnerable and authentic is actually a superpower. And it really helps you build those real human connections, finding common ground and building trust, you know, and in sort of the world of legal or broader in professional services, you know, you're working with, you know, some really brilliant experienced minds, but it's a complex and often jargon-heavy industry. And so I think where I've found that storytelling really allows that humanization of complex legal concepts, making them relatable and engaging. Not only just for clients, but actually internally as well. So I think if you've got a really compelling narrative that can really transform how you're perceived it can get engagement and ultimately help you change behavior.

Alistair: Yeah, i think it's really interesting the part that you talk about there around that human connection within professional services, so important i think it's amazing how many people kind of lose the idea of that and forget that it's very much a people-related business and just that whole idea of making everything far more relatable rather than jargon heavy is very, very interesting. I think we'll kind of get into that a little bit more with the second question. And, you know, it'd be great to understand why storytelling is such a central element of your legal marketing strategy. And what do you think firms outside of the legal industry can ultimately teach us about creativity, storytelling, thought leadership?

Laura: Oh, gosh, that's a big question. I think it really helps us connect with each other. As I said, having a really compelling narrative can inspire people, It can change behaviours. And externally, I think it helps differentiate. And the market that we work within, it's so competitive. And we're all competing for share of voice and often talking about very similar topics. And I think if you look outside of professional services, so thinking about tech, entertainment or consumer, those brands do it really, really well because they focus on the emotional connection. And I often find myself being a lot more alert when I'm walking around. So taking note of like bus stops or billboards, critiquing online ads, you know, finding inspiration from like print and magazine. And the thing that I look forward to the most every year is the release of the Christmas adverts, because I really think they get people talking. You know, people have got various responses and reactions and views of it. And it's a really good sort of conversational moment. And I think that, you know, those companies have really raised the bar, and where we're being flooded so much with more content and more communication, the best ones really do grab your attention. They make you think. They make you feel something. Ultimately, that's what makes you memorable and drives engagement. And you can't please everyone. And I don't think you should try to either. If you go down that route, you're going to end up creating something quite bland and forgettable.

Alistair: It's so interesting, all of that, because it's one of the topics that we spoke about a lot building into this is that whole idea of, i think you touched upon it there, just the emotional connection and what that can really do i know in in the various conversations we've had the first time was just before christmas and we're talking about the jaguar advert that just come out in the UK was causing a stir. Obviously last time we spoke as well we were talking about that emotional connection and how creative adverts are in the uk, and all i said oh do you remember the gorilla playing the drums and straight away you knew exactly who the brand was, what I was talking about. And then again, coming back to the Christmas adverts, every year, everyone's looking forward to what the John Lewis advert is going to be. How's that going to make you feel? And I just think it's so important to your point when you're in an industry that's so competitive, there's similar sort of topics you're talking about, you're competing for that share of voice. How can you create that emotional connection? I think that's something that is so important and quite clearly something you really considered from what we've spoken about in the ‘Year Ahead’ campaign as well. And i'd love to really delve into some of that with you and the unique approach that you took to it. So do you mind just maybe walking us through how the campaign's concept came about and some of the steps you took to get internal stakeholders on board for this year ahead campaign.

Laura: Yeah sure. So I mean this was four or five months in the making, and I was in a boardroom meeting sort of pitching an idea to do the next one. And it was actually our managing partner that was like, Laura, how can we push the boundaries? How can we do something that's a little bit bolder? And so I then went away and did some analysis on the previous predictions that we had made in the previous edition. And what I found really interesting was that we were very accurate, which you could think is a really good thing. But actually, I think it signaled to me that we were being quite safe. And so really thinking about, well, how am I going to get people to be bold? How are we going to get them to be a bit more provocative? I needed to create a safe space and something with a concept that people could relate to. And so it actually, the concept for the year ahead campaign actually came about from a team meeting that I was that I was hosting and other people that were of a similar age to me completely understood and got some of the movie references that I was using to describe various different things and it was some of the more junior members of the team that had absolutely no idea what I was going on about. And I was like oh my goodness, you're missing out. 

There's some real iconic stories and movies that have really shaped my experiences as an adult. And so that was really the start of this idea, and could we then take inspiration from Hollywood and think about a far, far away future galaxy and start to think about utopian and dystopian scenarios. And because we weren't asking our experts to think about the immediate 12 months, you could see that just opening up that horizon and giving them a bit more longevity and being a little bit braver and, you know, coming up with some ridiculous scenarios actually got the creative sort of brainstorming sessions going really, really well. And we also gave them some survey data to base some of their insights on as well. And I think also, particularly for lawyers, that works incredibly well because they can then comment on the evidence that's been presented to them rather than coming up with something completely on their own that they feel that they might be held to account to in the future. 

So yeah, so we just really started to run with it and we pitched the idea back to our senior leaders. Some were very much all for it. Some were a little bit hesitant and couldn't see how Hollywood connected with the law, but the main thing was to grab attention and to create client conversation. And the scenarios that we created were very similar to other thought leadership campaigns in that we were talking about macro themes like AI and tech transformation, sustainability, etc. But we just did it in a way that was really engaging on the creative side, but really got people to think about if we don't intervene now and if we don't start to put things in place within the next 12 months or beyond, we could end up in a dystopian future. And so what is it that we can all do as professionals, whether that's lawyers or working with regulators and businesses, is to actually create a new path to a utopian future. So yeah, it was one of those instances where with a couple of senior people that were all for it we ran with that energy. They were brilliant giving us the space to be bold, and we were also aware that we could have failed and if we were going to fail, we were going to do it fast, we were going to learn and then come back with a plan b but luckily it didn't fail.

Alistair: I was about to say I think from from what we're talking about it sounds like it was ultimately a big success which we'll get into, but Laura, I absolutely love that i just think the fact that you have been able to sit there with you know obviously ultimately a very traditional approach in terms when you think about the way that maybe the attorneys like to think about marketing or the way that things are traditionally done within professional services. And you know to usual words you've been able to go and push the boundaries, be kind of that bit more provocative around it, how you can relate it to Hollywood and this dystopian future and just make it far more ultimately exciting and engaging. I think it's something that almost to the previous conversation we're having in the last question was like, how can you create those emotions around it and something that's not just bland and out there? And being completely candid, other than the conversation you and I have had, I haven't really heard of too many law firms ever doing anything that kind of bucks the trend a little bit. So it's been very unique. In fact, the only one that comes to mind would probably be, a firm over in the US called BAL and the CMO there, Brendan Delaney, was saying to me that their most successful event they ran last year was a taylor swift themed. And it -

Laura: Yeah, amazing.

Alistair: Yeah, it was very much he said again it was obviously she was the hot topic of the moment, it was what everyone was talking about it was the eras tour and he was like well we just played into it and it was the most successful event that we ran. So there's a lot to be said when you hear about his success and you know some of the successes that you've had as well.

Laura: Yeah and I just think you know at the heart of that, it's about having fun. You know, we can talk about the serious topics within that same environment, but actually the sort of more like-hearted or safer spaces, you just get more out of it. People feel more outspoken. They can...Yeah just in, I don't know, just like enjoy themselves, connect, share an opinion and remember.

Alistair:  Yeah, 100%, just picking up on the safe space element there because you've mentioned a couple times i think that's probably anyone seems this would be thinking right getting my attorneys outside their comfort zone how do I do that? Do you think for you one of the biggest elements of creating that safe space was the ability to just add, I think you said you ran a few round tables to get them talking, but also you gave them some data and insights to be able to talk off the back of. Do you think that was probably the biggest sort of removal of any sort of barriers to entry, i suppose for them to get involved with it or was there something else you're like, that feels like that was the moment that everybody started to feel really safe around talking about these big topics, but in a more of a fun relaxed slightly different way?

Laura: Yeah I think what we did do was select experts across our international network that we knew had the characteristics to kind of fit this campaign. Where their natural sort of approach to marketing was already a little bit bold or provocative. And we used a big cohort from Rising Stars Network, and so I think it was really really important actually that it wasn't all partners. We had a mix of voices within those brainstorming sessions. And the way that we opened the sessions was to ask people to get the Hollywood movie that the scenario was based on. And people will see that we haven't named any for IP reasons. That would be very silly if we did so as a law firm, but the conversations actually then started from there and then people then started sharing their own favorite movies or their own pivotal moments that they had already made a connection with to the clients or the industries that they work within. So I think it was at that moment that we were like okay I think we're on to a bit of a winner here this isn't too obscure. This is something that people can latch on to and really, really enjoy talking about. And the main piece that sort of kept me going, because there were a few wobbles, you know, before we launched, I did sort of doubt myself thinking, oh, I pushed them too far. Is this going to land? I think it's a good idea, but what are clients going to think? But there was some really fantastic internal feedback from those experts who had said it was such a great opportunity to move away from the day-to-day grind of their matters to sit with colleagues that they might not have worked with before. And were able to have these dedicated sessions to think differently and to really think about you know various different scenarios and put the clients at the center of that. And I think even if it had failed externally. That would have been enough for me. I knew that we were heading in the right direction in terms of the brainstorming and awarding people time to engage.

Alistair: I absolutely love that. I think it's brilliant. It's such wonderful advice to be able to share and touch upon, I guess, partially some of that internal, external element, but also you said that ultimately it's been a success, which is wonderful to hear. What has the impact of the ‘Year Ahead’ campaign had both, internally and externally for you and were there any unexpected results along the way?

Laura: Yeah. So internally it was a real collaboration peak so although we interviewed you know, the fee earning community the lawyers actually it was a campaign that all employees across the business were interested in. We did teaser videos and you know like internal meetings and intranet stories and we actually posed the survey questions that we took externally to our employees as well. So they really felt like they were part of the campaign and the result and I really think that helped with engagement, because then when we got to launch it wasn't something that was new that was sitting on the desk and another thing that they had to, you know, send to their client. And so we'd already got that level of buy-in. And then externally, the unexpected results were the soaring sort of LinkedIn engagement. I think it's still the most successful campaign that we've run so far on LinkedIn. And I think it's because of the creative treatment we used because of the concept. It was something that would engage lots of different audiences. And that's probably one of the best things I think you can do as a marketer when you're really thinking about your audience segmentation. Who are the main people you're trying to target, but also thinking about the secondary and tertiary audiences. And if there's something in it for them as well, that's really where you start to get brand elevation. And then on the actual sort of online piece, our dwell times doubled. So people were staying on the site, they were reading content, and actually they were reading multiple pieces of content rather than going in and reading one piece or watching one piece and then moving on. That for me was really surprising because we all know that our clients and audiences are so time poor that we often get, you know, the one hit or our data shows that, you know, people come and they read one piece. You can tell that they haven't read it all. It's been skimmed and then they've left the site. Whereas actually this campaign not only captured attention but it held their attention as well.

Alistair: Which is so important because also if you think about the way that ultimately a law firm's website is your shop window. You want people to come into it and then you want them to be able to remain within the shop. You want them reading more that you have to say. Looking at the other expertise that you have to offer and it just shows what an impact by being slightly creative being a little bit out there has kind of had by people. I shouldn't even say slightly, very creative it has had in terms of people actually capturing their attention. And I think the point that you make around how it's actually important impact the secondary and the tertiary audiences to really elevate your brand is very interesting. I mean it's not something that I've ever considered myself but it's a really interesting concept.  I suppose that's what really gets people talking doesn't outside of just those immediate people who are going to be buying your services.

Laura: Yeah, definitely, definitely and you know personalization is still very important and I don't  endorse spamming which a lot of us can be guilty of sometimes, but this was very much organic in its reach. And so I think that's why it was successful.

Alistair: It's brilliant. I must say well done on it. And if we continue to look ahead, what's next for the ‘Year Ahead’ campaign? I mean how do you plan to maintain this momentum? I know you said it's continually to organically growing at the moment, but you know there's evolving tech, there's different client needs, there's the internal feedback,  how are you kind of looking ahead to what's next with that?

Laura: Yeah, well we actually got a lot of people internally that felt that they'd missed out and so what a great what a great problem to fix. So we're now looking at developing a sequel, and so a  new chapter to the ‘Year Ahead’ that will be launched in June. And surprisingly, some of the predictions that we made that we thought would be happening in 2050, actually, you can start to see them taking shape already because, you know, the race for AI is much, much quicker than I think anybody had anticipated. So, you know, of course, there's lots of things happening across the markets. There's always change. There's always an opportunity for us to engage and talk to our clients about how their needs are changing. And so where we've now hit the first quarter, we have done a bit of a reinvigoration internally to remind people that this isn't just a campaign that's relevant for the beginning of the year. Let's keep updating it, let's keep using it for conversations. It's definitely something that will give us some longevity. So we're very focused on doing that. And also thinking about how we can recycle and reuse the insights in other activities. So whether that's at a conference or an event or another campaign, just thinking about how we can start to build that spread and keep that consistency across all of our marketing efforts.

Alistair: Yeah, I imagine you say set the bar very high for yourself, so how can you keep that all going, but also you know i love the idea of, you know, how can you make them useful for other conversations you're having, how can you weave it into everything you're currently doing, and you know, nice to know that some of those predictions are already starting to come through as slightly crazy the world that we're living in and to think that that's that's already happening. Well that crazily brings us on to the final question and it's been so wonderful having this conversation. I've thoroughly enjoyed it so far, but Laura for our audience what are your top three lessons that you would share with our other CMOs who want to incorporate storytelling into their marketing strategy.

Laura: I would say be authentic. I think genuine stories build trust. So whether that's your own personal story or stories that you're presenting to the market to get engagement. Secondly, I'd say be prepared to fail and learn fast. I think working in a law firm, it's quite difficult to take risks and you certainly do not want to get anything wrong. But I think CMOs, they can push the boundaries a little bit further and pick a campaign that is going to be focused on client conversations, rather than legal advice. I think that that's where you can start to push. And then thirdly I'd say embrace creativity really think about how you can present things differently, and actually I should really shout out my own in-house creative team because that was all done by them. We've got some yeah some real fantastic talent in the team and they really embraced the idea and took it to another level. And it was really great to see them so excited to have the guardrails removed so that they could do something that was really interesting.

Alistair: Yeah, I can only imagine it's so wonderful. I mean to recap that authenticity, prepare to fail, creativity, I mean it makes well. It's obviously a recipe for success based on everything that's happened with your ‘Year Ahead’ campaign, so I must congratulate you on that,  and Laura this has been so incredibly interesting and such a wonderful conversation to have. I've personally thoroughly enjoyed it, I know we've got a couple of quick quick fire questions to go, but thank you ever so much for taking the time this has been, yeah, absolutely brilliant. The final part of this is just the quick fire round. Are you good to answer a couple of these more?

Laura: I am. I haven't prepared. So yeah, let's see what comes.

Alistair: Shooting from the hip, we like it. So first question, what are you currently listening to? This could be music, podcasts, audiobooks.

Laura: So music-wise, my playlist is full of artists like B-Fighters, Imagine Dragons, Kings of Leon, Florence and the Machine, so bands like that. But I've actually just got into liquid drum and bass, so fully recommend Hybrid Minds. They're probably a little bit out there, but I find it actually really quite relaxing and it helps me organize my thoughts. So give it a go.

Alistair: I've never heard of liquid drum and bass. So I'm going to have to listen to it, but all the other artists I absolutely adore, and I was sharing with you before, Imagine Dragons are brilliant, and there is an artist over here in the US called Alex Warren, who I heard him for the first time and could have sworn it was Imagine Dragons.So I'll send you over his track. 

Laura: Yeah, please do. I'll check him out.

Alistair: Second question, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Laura: Don't make assumptions. Ask lots of questions, even the stupid ones, because the answers might surprise you.

Alistair: Agreed, it's a great piece of advice. What's a book or resource you recommend to anyone in your field?

Laura: So I recently did the mini MBA in management run by Mark Rickson and I found that incredibly useful thinking about moving into like a CMO role but then i suppose like other resources, i'd say embrace life outside like go to the theatre, go to an exhibition and immerse yourself in some really good tv dramas, and really sit there and take it in. Don't be on your phone and then really ask yourself like what did you like about it? What did you not like about it? and how can that then be transferred into your role. 

Alistair: I love that. I absolutely love that. The fourth question is what's your favorite way to unwind after a busy day?

Laura: Well I have, well she's a dog, but she's still my puppy, Coco. So we yeah we go on dog walks and she's got pretty good recall. So I do quite like showing that off when we're in the middle of the field. But yeah, I do find that just, yeah, going out for a walk, if the sun's shining, great. But even if it's raining, just getting away from electronics for a bit is, yes, definitely works for me.

Alistair: Couldn't agree more. Disconnecting from everything. And I'm glad to hear she's got good recall. We're not having any Fenton situations, if you know that. And anyone listening who hasn't seen it just type in Fenton Richmond Park into YouTube and you'll see what we're talking about. The final final question is where is your favorite place to visit and why? 

Laura: I do a lot of holidays like family holidays in Spain, but I do have one of those maps of the world that you scratch off, and so I've given myself a goal to explore more parts of the world. And earlier this year I went to Morocco for the first time which was incredible and we did quad biking on the sand dunes camel ride, soaked up some of the culture, and came back with a lot of Moroccan tea. So me and my son now have that on a Sunday morning. So I suppose, yeah, I don't have one particular favorite place. I like to explore new ones.

Alistair: I love that, I love that and it probably feeds into who you are as kind of that expressive individual from everything that we've been speaking about. Look Laura, thank you ever so much for joining us, it truly has been a joy catching up with you and for anybody listening I could not recommend enough going to check out the ‘Year Ahead’ campaign it's super, super cool. I'm certainly going to be keeping an eye out for June when the sequel comes around and anything else in the future but thank you so much for your time.

Laura: Thank you so much, I really enjoyed that.