CMO Series EP175 - Richard Meneghello of Fisher Phillips on How Smart Content Can Set Your Firm Apart

James: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series podcast. Today we're diving into the world of law firm content, and we've got someone with us whose career journey has been anything but typical. Joining me is Richard Meneghello, Chief Content Officer at Fisher Phillips. He started out as a lawyer in litigation, but it's his passion for writing that helped reshape the way the firm connects with its clients producing content that's timely, practical, and that drives business growth. In this episode, Richard shares what really works when it comes to getting lawyers to write. He talks about how to build a content driven culture across the firm, and he explains how tight collaboration between marketing and BD is so important. You'll hear some great tips on using AI and tech to personalize content and move fast. Importantly, without losing quality. 

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James: Welcome, Richard. 

Richard: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

James: No, not at all. This is exciting. So let's kick off. Can you start by telling us about your career from partner to Chief Content Officer? It's a rare journey in legal. Can you tell us a bit about the transition and how that happened?

Richard: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Uh, yeah, no, definitely unique, definitely a strange journey. Certainly not one that I would've predicted when, um, when I was practicing law. I wanted to be a lawyer from, I think, like age eight or nine. So I always knew that I was gonna be a lawyer and. I enjoyed it for the time that I did it and, um, and like to think I was pretty good at it. Our firm focuses on labor and employment law. We do nothing but represent employers and so I was spending most of the day defending cases and advising employers about best practices in compliance. And honestly, I did that for close to 20 years. And I'd always enjoyed writing. I did it as it was, it was one of my marketing platform initiatives to help build my book of business.

So I did a fair bit of writing for our firm newsletters, and other external publications. And, really a convergence of two things happened at once. One, our firm decided that they wanted to hire a publications coordinator to really ramp up our production and not just put out a newsletter once a month. And then secondly, I just got sick of practicing law. Literally I could remember the day I was sitting preparing for a deposition and, I realized, man, this is very monotonous and I feel like it's the same day every day. And I, and I thought that when I got close to retirement, I'd want to do something differently.

And I didn't know what that looked like, whether it was getting into academia or writing or something, I don't know. And all of a sudden it just hit me. And that was back in 2015 to 10 years ago already. I, and I was lucky enough to have a firm that was really supportive of my transitioning from active practice to this publication's role. And, so I did that for about five years. And then it was around COVID time that the firm realized just the value that our content was bringing. Our attorneys in our law firm, and elevated me to the Chief Content Officer role and allowed me to build a team, and currently I have a team of three people that work with me.

Two other legal content counsel, former attorneys, who are now full-time writers and a full-time graphics person to help us make some of our content look pretty. And, yeah, so my job currently, I'll spend more than half my day editing and generating content, um, strategizing what we want to develop next. And the other half of the day is more sort of an amorphous sort of role where I'm just working with different practice leaders and firm leaders. To sort of just help figure out what's coming around the corner, what our clients are gonna be caring about tomorrow, and then helping them, and my team position our content to be able to match that, before employers even realize that they need the advice. So it's sort of - it's a fun job. I tell people that I get to spend half my day surfing the internet, and that's sort of not a lie. And, uh, and I get to not have to go to court and I could wear whatever I want working from home. So it's a really fantastic job and I'm glad I have it. 

James: And the, and the team, you've built, the team you sit alongside. It's not with, it's alongside, but it's not within the firm's marketing and BD leadership. That's right. Isn't it? 

Richard: Yeah. Correct. We're, we're our own little crazy entity. 

James: And how, so how do you collaborate? You know, a lot of people listening to this are in marketing or in BD. How do you collaborate across teams? While leading as an independent function, and that's kind of with marketing with bd, but also obviously with the lawyers.

Richard: Yeah, and I, you know, I wouldn't necessarily recommend this for everybody. I think it's just really a function of my history with the firm, and my having been around so long, and having this sort of unique strategy role that goes along with content that led the firm to recognize that it would be better to have me separate from our marketing business development team. I closely collaborate with them very often. I'm messaging with that team on a frequent basis every single day. And, I talk very frequently with our chief marketing and business development officer, who's wonderful. Really the way it - the way it works well is just we have a really good team environment and team culture here at the firm. And it's really been that way since day one in our firm. 

Our Chief Operating Officer does a wonderful job of vetting people to make sure that anyone we add to the team has to be a team player. And that's much more important than skill or smart. So I think first of all, it just comes from us all respecting that culture, and just a high level of communication we have, not just daily, you know, technical, logistical, um, collaboration, but we step back every once in a while. We have regular meetings to talk about big picture stuff, and, we make sure that we align really closely when it comes to all our different practice areas and industry teams;  and their leadership to make sure that the marketing team and I and my team understand the best way to position those teams and little individual units to maximize the effectiveness of the content. So really it's all about communication. 

James: Absolutely. Yeah. And when it comes to the outcomes of you know, of your efforts. It's always nice to be able to just share a specific example where, you know, a content campaign that you and the team have built, that has directly contributed to client growth or new business development. Can you give us an example? 

Richard: Yeah. And you know, it's funny, I tell people all the time. We have monthly, and sometimes quarterly, meetings to welcome new attorneys to the firm and we'll tell them about the value that content can bring to their marketing plan. And, we'll always tell them, “Hey, look, when you write a piece of content, don't expect somebody to just pick up the phone and call you and say, wow, I need somebody to work on a very, that exact thing. Can I hire you as my attorney?” It's more like planting seeds, obviously, and then it'll spring up at some later point. But it does happen occasionally where you literally get somebody reaching out 'cause they've read something that somebody's written and wants to hire them. And I've got a great example from just last week. And it involves me, actually, which is a little bit weird, because again I'm not a business developer anymore per se 'cause I don't practice and build my own client base. But, I have helped generate a high number of pieces of content related to artificial intelligence because we'll probably get in and out a little bit, but it's one of my subspecialties.

And so I, that's one of the few areas where I will be out in front and things that I will write, I will have my name attached to it. And I also do a lot of marketing in that effort. I do a biweekly podcast, webinar series and head up a conference related to AI. And I, so we've been writing very frequently in the last few months about AI and what employers need to know when they deploy it in their own organizations and an existing firm client reached out to me and their attorney within the firm, and said “Hey, we have some questions about deploying AI and we would love if you could connect us with Rich, and see if he could bring some insights to us.”,  and sure enough. So we had a phone call. We brought in an attorney in the firm who specializes in actually doing the work, and the three of us had a call with their team and they retained us to do a project for them to help give them best practices. So it's amazing. It does sometimes happen where you write stuff and people will come out and hire you. So yeah, that's just a very recent example, but there's lots where that, a very similar thing happens in our firm.I hear from our attorneys, on a, on at least a monthly basis. I hear about that direct kind of retention happening right from a piece of content.

James:  I think it's, yeah, it's by doing that, you are leading the conversation as opposed to someone else, because if you're not talking about it, they're not thinking, oh the - your attorneys are ever so busy. They're brilliant, but busy. They're thinking about someone else if they're talking about it. So, no, it's a great example and I'm thoroughly looking forward to your conference. But I think you're right, it's the planting the seeds is the key. Now talking of planting the seeds, the big question is what does it really take to get lawyers writing and writing? Well what's worked for you? What's worked for building that culture of creating thought leadership and creating great content? 

Richard: Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I'd say the first one, it might sound counterintuitive, and that is we don't force people to write. I've found over the years when teams, individual teams within our firm, let's say hypothetically, we've got a team that does, and I'm just picking this out of the blue, this, this is not accurate, but let's say we have a wage and hour team. And the wage and hour team says, “Hey, to be part of our team, you've gotta write an article, you know, we're gonna do a rotating thing”. So everyone who wants a quarter has to write an article. When teams do that, the writing is awful and the reason the writing is awful, you get people who don't like to write and they're forced to write about a circumstance that they don't care about, or about an issue that's not really interesting. They're just looking for something to write about and it shows that the content just doesn't feel snappy or interesting or punchy or at all. Something that I think a client would want to read. So the first thing is we only ask people who want to write to actually write. And we're fortunate enough to have a large enough firm that it works.

We, you know, we have close to or over 700 attorneys right now. So really only if we only had a quarter of the people writing, we'd still have a  massive group of writers. But I think the first thing is not forcing it, as other people have other skills that  they use for their marketing efforts; whether it's public speaking or joining groups or whatever it is. So that's the first thing and then the second thing, for those who do write, we try to make it as easy as possible for them. We have a really detailed FAQ, that's also simple and very, you know, easy to read. That tells people, sort of, gives them a rough template of how we think Fisher Phillips style works; really just to make it easy for them. We wanna remove the impediments because we know these are all busy people with, you know, clients pulling them in a hundred different directions. We know that. So we try to make it as simple as possible for them as well. And then honestly, we also on the backend, spend a lot of time congratulating them and thanking them. We on a weekly basis send out analytics reports letting them know where their stuff ranks. We think that gives them a little bit of encouragement and once they start to see that what they're writing is getting traction. I think it helps them want to write the next piece.

So I think it's really important to follow up at the end of it as well and let them know that what they're doing is having an impact because that also, I think, drives the next piece of content from them.

James: Yeah. And, personalization and speed are also net authenticity a key when it comes to delivering that relevant and timely content. How are you using technology, especially AI to target content, to train lawyers, and to get those quality insights out fast. 

Richard: Well, yeah, let's focus on AI, right? It's the great temptation right now to just open up ChatGPT, say “Hey, I wanna write an article about X subject. Write it for me. Within 30 seconds”, you're gonna have an article there, cut and paste, boom, send it off to production, and you're done. And I can honestly say that's one of the worst ways to operate, because when AI generates content for you it's so robotic, and it's so smooth, and it's so flat, and it's absolutely nothing. And, people realize that readers will sniff that out a mile away. And if they start realizing that all you're doing is getting a robot to write your work for you, they're gonna stop reading your stuff. Your reputation's gonna fall through the floor, and you're not gonna get repeat readership. So, the temptation is there but AI has to be used really, really, uh, in a thoughtful way in the content world. We encourage our authors to use AI to help brainstorm ideas, to help, you know, work with them, maybe to develop a personalized marketing plan or, big picture wise, you know, think about ways in which it can help their career. And when it comes to individual pieces of content, AI is good at summarizing long cases, let's say of statutes or regulations or pieces of guidance, and then provide you with some ideas about directions in which you could take your article. 

But it really has to be human developed and we have to see that individual nature and the individual voice come forth or else. If I get a piece of content, which is happening obviously occasionally from our attorneys that I know has been heavily written by ChatGPT or some other generative AI platform. So we go to town on it and edit the heck out of it to make sure that it sounds human, and really rip it to the part where it's not written by AI anymore. So it can be used to help with that personalization and speed, but the temptation needs to be avoided to rely on it too heavily  because we're not at the point yet where AI can really mimic human creativity.

James: I couldn't agree more. I think the authenticity, and I think when you said the robotic, it's the vanilla nature. And if they're seeing you write like that's how they're gonna see how you act as an attorney. So as you say, it's reputation management. Absolutely. So before we go to the quickfire round, last question for Chief Marketing Officers and Chief CM & BDOs and the other leaders who are listening to this podcast. What is the one piece of advice you would give to take their thought leadership to the next level and really differentiate themselves? When it comes to; when it comes to creating thought leadership and content, what's the one thing they could do today? 

Richard: Yeah. This is super simple and yet I think it's transformative. And that is before you embark on any sort of campaign or even drill down really small to, you know, writing a piece of content. It's to think about your audience before you start whatever your process is, and think about them religiously at every step along the way. Because very often; and this I really take for me, from my days of actual direct, you know, sales, when I was trying to build my own client base as a lawyer, where I'd seen other lawyers go into a room, a pitch meeting and spend. You know, 45-minutes of the hour talking about themselves and how great they are and all the awards they won and cases they won. And really realizing that the best salespeople are ones that spend the time getting to know the pain points of the client, getting them to spend the 45-minutes talking about their issues and what they've got, and then wrapping up by talking about how they can help them.

And I really think that same mentality holds true with content or marketing, on a big picture firm level. Rather than thinking about how smart you are and how many great tools you have to offer, and how many great ideas you have; First, orient yourself by thinking about who your client is, what they need to know right now, what their pain points are, spend as much time as you can gathering information and data from your clients to find out how you can solve those issues. Then build the campaign around that. And I know it sounds super simple, but it's just this tiny little mind shift that once you start thinking about it, you can't not think about it and it's gonna impact everything. The way you write, the way you send emails, the way you deliver content, the way you approach, um, new clients or new campaigns, everything will shift because you're now putting yourself in their shoes, and thinking about what they need to hear, and I think that becomes really authentic and clients respect that. I really do think you'll see movement from it when, when you shift that way. 

James: Spot on. That's wonderful advice. So Richard, now for the quick fire round, what are you currently listening to? Can be music, podcast, audiobook. 

Richard: Yeah, I recently, I feel silly, it took me this long to discover this artist, Sam Fender, who apparently is huge in England. But he just popped up on my playlist about six months ago, when I saw him in concert a few months ago here in Portland, Oregon, and it was unbelievable. So he's been a high volume listen for me on Spotify recently. 

James: Thanks. And what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Richard: Oh, wow. Okay. I still remember this from law school. Somebody told us, I think it was one of the professors that reasonable people can disagree with, and it made me realize that, I think I'd previously thought that just because somebody didn't agree with me, that they must have just been a jerk. And it helps me realize that, wow, reasonable people can disagree about things. And I don't know why that stuck with me, but it always has. 

James: And what's a book or resource that you recommend to anyone in your field? 

Richard: You know, when I was starting out in content, I stumbled across a book written by the copy chief at Buzzfeed called a World Without Whom. Her name is Emily or sorry, Emmy Favilla. And the whole book is about her journey to take really sort of serious content development to a website like Buzzfeed that a lot of people didn't take seriously and was, you know, very casual and breezy. And how you could apply real serious content development to sort of this more casual style. And even though it's probably a little bit outdated, 'cause it's almost a decade old,, it really opened my eyes about how you didn't have to follow the same old tired formula to produce content. That you really could take things in a more modern approach and still deliver content in a serious way.

James: That's brilliant. We'll put a link into it. We'll go and find it and put a link into it. 

Richard: Yeah. Lovely. 

James: And what's your favorite way to unwind after a busy day? 

Richard: Oh, this is gonna sound crazy, but after I spend a day writing, I really enjoy creative writing, 

James: I knew you were gonna say that.

Richard: Yeah. But, I take my laptop and I move it to a different part of my house so I'm not sitting at the same place where I've been sitting all day chained to my desk doing work-work. And, uh, yeah, short stories, writing, working on a novel, other creative writing. So, yeah, crazy. I know, but I just can't stop writing, I guess.

James: No, that's wonderful. And finally, where is your favorite place to visit and why? 

Richard: I'm lucky enough to live in Portland, Oregon, like we said, and I can just drive in about 45 minutes and head to the Willamette Valley wine country. And there's just so many different wineries to hit and it's such a beautiful vista, and it's great anytime a year to go. And of course then when you get there, you get a sample of the world's best wine, Oregon's Pinot Noir. So, I'm a sucker for  just a short drive and an amazing experience in wine country here. 

James: Well, there you go. I'll have to come visit. Listen Richard, thanks ever so much for today and for recording that podcast with us.

Rich: Excellent. So glad to have been here. Thanks. 

Charlie: You can follow the Passle CMO Series Podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.