CMO Series EP176 - Julie Mortimer of Mills & Reeve on The Right Way to Kickstart Your CRM Strategy

Transcription: 

Charles: Major infrastructure projects like a new website or a CRM system can be a long and challenging project for the legal marketing teams from securing stakeholder buy-in to managing IT demands and security concerns. It's all part of this big project on today's episode of the CMO Series podcast. I'm excited to welcome Julie Mortimer, Director of Marketing at Mills and Reeve to discuss the crucial first steps in getting a CRM project off the ground. Julie will share her insights on overcoming the common challenges, securing leadership buy-in, and choosing the right tech and vendors. We'll also dive into how AI and automation are transforming CRM strategies. 

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Charles: Welcome to the podcast, Julie. 

Julie: Hi, nice to be on.

Charles: Julie. Well, CRM projects, they're not an easy or quick task to implement. So really, why don't we kick off today with, from your experience, the first steps a marketing leader needs to take when kicking off a CRM project, especially in a complex organization, like a law firm.

Julie: Okay, I'll broaden it out slightly and just talk maybe about major infrastructure projects, because I think they both, they follow; they follow the same path in that you'll be asking the firm for a significant investment over a period of time. Both in terms of hard cash, but also in terms of time to implement it, time to get the change management you need to actually get the thing to work and people to adopt it. So it is a big, big, big ask. So things I've learned over the years is you need to plan, probably, two years out, if you know you're going to be trying to do something like this, because you just need to start talking to people about why you need to do this and what the benefits will be. And that really is, I don't, you can underestimate that. You just need to get people warmed up and particularly if you've got a significant ask in terms of investment, you need people to be thinking about; the finance director needs to be thinking about that a good couple of years out in terms of our, our planning and so on. So I think start early would be my big recommendation on any kind of project like this. Just don't think it's gonna be a one year project. You're probably looking two years before you actually hit the button to start implementing it. And then another year plus before you actually get it singing and dancing and doing everything you want. So it's a long game or it certainly is within a law firm.

Charles: Yeah, and is part of that educating and planting those seeds and I guess building, building the case that we kind of need to, need to do this or, or what, what sort of things in particular should you do with that early sort of - 

Julie: I think in our case, particularly thinking about a CRM system. And CRM systems within users in law firms often have a bit of a mixed press. So people say, well, the data's not accurate, no one's updated it recently, my client isn't on there. And part of that is because, well, you haven't put the data on or you haven't told us that this, this address is out of data or whatever it is. But you really do need to get people more enthused about something like data and what you can actually do with the data. So just pulling out really good stories about how we've been able to use what we currently have, how it's helped us win a client, how it's helped us cement the relationship with a client, how it's just given us that knowledge before we've gone into a pitch.

So really getting that, that soft storytelling out very, very early on. So you're just building up a nice level of positive noise about what you want to do, particularly where you've got quite an age legacy system, as we have, you really want to be starting to make more positive noises about how bright and glowing the future could actually look because it then starts to just to win over the detractors, you start, you get less of the negativity and more of the, Hey, this would be great if we could do X, Y, and Z, and that's what we're trying to get to before we push the button on actually sending out the documentation, getting the proposals in, and then getting the price of the system in as well. 

Charles: Now without trying to put you on the spot, do you remember any of these early conversations and how they went a bit more granularly? Like how did you bring it up or what was your sort of approach?

Julie: I think I'm sure like most law firms, we have a fairly, rigorous finance planning system, so we would've started talking about this back in February, March 23, knowing that we would want to be, bringing something in, probably it'll be in 2027, so it's that far out. So we're just sitting down with the FD and saying, okay, we can see we're coming; we're getting to the end of life with this system, we are going to need to do something with it. Therefore, let's just sit down and talk about how we schedule this in. So, first, the first thing is just about getting the placeholder in, in terms of when do you think you're going to do this? And for most law firms, you will have contracts that will be expiring. You will have contracts that will need rolling over. So that gives you your starting point in terms of, okay, let's start really nailing it down now in terms of we are going to want to do this at X point in time for these reasons. And then start working through, okay, here's some of the really good things we think we could do with a new system that we can't currently do with the one we've got at the moment. So that first really granular conversation will have been about, we're going to want to do this in a couple of years time, and I'm putting, putting everyone on notice now that this is coming down the track. 

Charles: Yeah, it sounds like you were just really organized in having this plan and sort of getting the buy-in. But on top of getting the right people involved and, and the sort of firm on side. What are some of the other major considerations that need to be addressed when embarking on a project like this, A CRM project? 

Julie: In this one, you've really gotta be clear about who the stakeholders are and who you need to be talking to. So clearly we've got the finance director, we've got the managing partner, but we've also then got all of our security people, all of our risk people who are concerned with this. And on top of, that's just within the business services team. And then sitting on top of that, you've got the lawyers who are going to use it. And we really have been talking a lot to our sector leaders and our NSL leaders about what it is we think we could do with a new system and just getting them excited about it and trying a few different things with them. So they can see what the new technology can actually do that the current system can't.

So there's, there's a real think about who your stakeholders are in terms of the people who will be responsible for signing off and implementing it. But also think about the user group. Who are the people who are really going to benefit from it? And think about how you start to get them excited. So when we're talking about this and this investment, everyone's going, yeah, I can see how we're gonna be using this, and they're gonna be advocating for you. Rather than just thinking, oh gosh, this is another cost that's coming through the business from the business services team. 

Charles: And have you already highlighted some of those sort of key champion voices internally?

Julie: Yeah, I mean we've got a couple of user groups for whom a new CRM system that's got a little bit more joined upness than the current one has, could really help. And things like our international practice group, again, having visibility of who we're talking to internationally will really, really help us and the ability to make connections with them. Again, it will just help us significantly with that part of our business. So we've been experimenting with a few things with a bit of some new functionality the current CRM system has, which is commonplace to most CRM systems now. But, it's only just come on stream for us, but again, we're just showing people actually this is what you can do with. his piece where we're actually looking at contact scraping, which is nothing sophisticated in the marketplace, but it's new to us and it's therefore giving us a much better insight into the strength of our relationships with certain contacts and clients. And just talking to, talking about actually we could be doing more of this in a more joined up manner if we can start plugging some of our other data in. 

Charles: Yeah, that's an interesting point actually, and it leads nicely onto my next question, which is around, AI and automation and it, they seem to be significant drivers for improving efficiency within CRM strategies. Have you done much sort of scoping out of how AI and automation will help with your sort of new CRM approach or how it will support your marketing and BD efforts. Have you explored that much yet already? 

Julie: We haven't explored it specifically through CRM at the moment because we've got a reasonably good idea in terms of some of the suppliers we want to talk to. So we'll talk to them specifically about what they're using and how they're using it. But within the function at the moment, um, like most law firms are a Microsoft house, so we've all been on copilot. We've been playing with the full fat version of copilot as well within my team. And we know already that we're seeing significant productivity benefits and also some creativity benefits as well. It's not just about doing the stuff that we currently do faster, it's about just finding slightly different ways to do things as well. So we've got probably the biggest group of pilot users sitting within the marketing team, and actually we're really getting a lot from it. So. It's something that we think will transform how we can work, and we're really keen to talk to our IT guys, not just about what co-pilot can do for us, but what more specific forms of AI can also do for us within the marketing field.

And that's quite a challenge because. There's a set of tools and a set of AI products that we would want to use that would not be suitable for the rest of the firm 'cause they're not that interested in it. So trying to get to a point where we can have our own suite of AI products that look somewhat different to the rest of the firm, you know, that that would be quite an interesting path because we try and just have one set of things everybody uses, whereas actually we could see enormous benefits for looking at other products, particularly stuff around visuals.

Charles: Yeah, and I think that's probably something that comes in when you go out and you are speaking to partners and vendors, they're the ones that you, you, you can sort of challenge as a firm and say, Hey, what, can you offer that we can do? What ways do you see us, um, driving efficiencies or driving creativity. So I guess that that phase is probably gonna get explored a lot more in the coming months. 

Julie: Yeah, and there's so much coming out at the moment. So we had a session with a vendor last week, and he was showing us something that they'd knocked up using it. Basically an AI agent to help manage directory submissions, which are the bane of everybody in marketing's life. And I just thought this was amazing. You could just use this agent to basically contact the partner and get a download of what they want to include in their chambers and legal 500 submission, and then just basically plunk it into the, into the chamber's form. I just thought. I'm interested in some of that.

Charles: Yeah. And, I guess if you've got the data and the information,  if it is just about linking it up and that's where those products can come in and help. 

Julie: Yeah. And well, we see that, we see that even now at a basic level where we just basically take all of our directory submissions and dump them into our tenders database, which means they're there to be interrogated every time we get a bid in. That's where we're looking for that kind of content, and it is just a real game changer. The ability to, to look easily. For content as opposed to having to, you know, you having to sit there and pull through screens and screens and screens of stuff looking for a particular phrase is a real game changer.

Charles: Yeah. And as a vendor myself, it's brilliant that you're out there, listening, going out and checking out what people have to offer, and that sort of links into my next question around how do you select the right partner, and what advice would you give to a marketing leader who is starting out their CRM journey in terms of selecting the right technology or the right vendors or the right partners? What would you say on that? 

Julie: I'd always say go and talk to your peers and see what they're up to, because there'll be some people who are at the leading edge of this stuff and will have, will have invested, will have some war stories to tell you, we'll have some recommendations for you. So I think you should start with your peers within the sector. But I would also look outside of the sector to see what people are using that isn't specifically built for the legal marketplace, and just see actually what we can learn from that. 'cause in some cases, the stuff that comes into the legal sector is interesting, but might not be as good as stuff that's been developed for the broader marketplace. So, we'll all look if you like, on both sides of that one, in terms of what's there in the legal sector, what's there outside, we'd also, as I say, we talked to our peers, we talked to people more broadly about this one. 

So that would be my first piece of advice. Just, just go and have a chat with people who have actually implemented things reasonably recently and find out what they learned because there's a big difference in terms of I always think about what you are sold, then what you actually build and how you use it. And I'm sure everyone has got some horror stories of coming unstuck about something  they thought would work brilliantly outta the box because the salesperson told them that it would, and thousands of pounds later in terms of integrations and tailor making, they finally get it to do what they want it to do. So going to talk to people who've had recent experience is always really, really helpful. 

Charles: Yeah, and that's something we say actually at Passle, when we're trying to introduce them to what we do and who we are. Like I sit in the sales team, so obviously I could try and tell 'em what to do, but it's much easier for me to say, look, go and speak to this CMO - 

Julie: Yeah. 

Charles: And ask them how they did it. Go and speak to this law firm they operate in the same space as you go and see how they did it. And, you know, one of your peers knows the challenges much more than -

Julie: Yeah. 

Charles: Than maybe, a vendor does. So yeah, I think that's a great piece of advice. 

Julie: Yeah, and also we'd encourage our vendors to be really honest with us in terms of being clear about it does this, but it does not do that without you having to basically put some sort of customization through it. I'd far rather know that on day one before we make the decision and plan for that, because often we're, we're happy to compromise. We're happy to think, okay, it's going to do 80% of what we wanted to do brilliantly, but there's 20% over here it's less good at. How can we overcome that? And I'd far rather know that. Rather than someone promising me the world and having a crashing disappointment, very early on. 

Charles: Yeah. Well maybe I should clip that little tip and I can send that out to all the vendors that you are speaking to

Julie: I mean, yeah. I mean, everyone talks about having a one stop shop, but actually I wouldn't want a one stop shop for everything. You know, I probably generally want the best product for that particular thing, and I'm happy to integrate and I'm happy to customize. I want to know what the limitations are. 

Charles: Yeah. And that's something we see as well with law firms, is this composable approach is actually using the best tools for the job that needs to do. And a lot of the technologies out there. 

Julie: Mm-hmm. 

Charles: Lots of the people we work with our tools all talk to each other and they can all integrate or most of them can. So, yeah, it's about working out how they best do that. 

Julie: Yeah. And that's, you know, that's a massive change from, I think, when we bought the last system 15 odd years ago, and getting things to talk to one another was very difficult. And therefore, often you did end up buying a system that was sat within your main PMS system, which wasn't and therefore it wasn't great, it wasn't, the best product hadn't been developed to do that. So you had to compromise. So I think it is very different now. You can actually buy things that are best in class and then knit it together quite easily with something else that's best in class. So you get a really good product for what you need rather than having to compromise in one area or the other or another. 

Charles: Brilliant. Well, we're now at the point in the podcast, where we jump into the quick fire round. Now I've known you for a couple of years, so I know you are a champion rower and an enthusiastic wine taster. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Charles: Somalia. 

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. 

Charles: But, this is a que this is a chance for our audience to learn a bit more about you. So my first question is what are you currently listening to? This could be a music podcast, audio book.

Julie: Oh, what am I currently listening to? Oh gosh. Well, given the weekend we've just had, I've had Glastonbury on the radio in my back pocket while I've been out in the garden. 

Charles: Oh, fantastic. Getting all the latest.

Julie: Getting all the latest. Yep. Catching from Glastonbury. 

Charles: Brilliant. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Julie: The best piece of advice. I mean, it's a classic, do unto others as you would be done to yourself. 

Charles: Okay. 

Julie: So be respectful, be kind, and listen to people. 

Charles: I like that. I like that. What book or resource would you recommend to anyone in your field? 

Julie: The Economist or The Financial Times. 

Charles: Yeah. Just to keep you sort of up to date with - 

Julie: It just keeps you current with what's going on in business developments across technology, developments in marketing. I just think having that breadth and having an international breadth is vital in doing the kind of job that I do. 

Charles: Fantastic. What's your favorite way to unwind after a busy day? 

Julie: There's probably lots of wine. 

Charles: No, not going out and rowing a 2K on a rowing machine. Hey, 

Julie: Hey, hey, tonight the rowing machine is coming out into the garden because it's bumps coming up, so -

Charles: Yeah

Julie: I can't, I can't get on the river tonight, so it's a good 30 minutes on the erg. 

Charles: Fantastic. Where's your favorite place to visit and why? 

Julie: We have a house in France, which I love going to simply because the weather's generally very good and you can just relax straight away. So, It's a bit home from home.

So if I was somewhere more exotic Japan, I'd go back to in a shot. 

Charles: Yeah. Fantastic. 

Julie: I've always loved traveling there. It's so familiar, but so strange. 

Charles: Yeah, I bet. I've never been, but I've recently, I dunno if it's just the age I've got to, but lots of my friends have gone there recently, so maybe - 

Julie: Absolutely yeah amazing place to go to. 

Charles: Or maybe the tourism board is having a push to -

Julie: They have, I think after the Tokyo Olympics, it didn't happen. 

Charles: Yeah. 

Julie: But I think visa numbers are way up now, so expect it to be very, very crowded. 

Charles: Yeah. And, so I had friends that traveled out for the Olympics and they flew out the day before they raced and then flew home the day after. They were just in and out. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Charles: They didn't see any of Tokyo. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Charles: They saw the hotel and the road course. 

Julie: It's a real shame. Such a shame because I went to Japan for the Rugby World Cup and they were so good at doing the Rugby World Cup, and I just thought the Olympics is going to be amazing.

Charles: Anyway, so we are gonna wrap up the podcast. 

Julie: Okay. 

Charles: In the same way we wrap up all of our podcasts, it's about asking our guests for their key takeaways. So for you, this is for anyone new to a CRM project or about to embark on one? What are your top three dos or don'ts to avoid the common pitfalls?

Julie: Do number one would be start planning much further in advance than you ever think you're going to need. It will take you far longer than you'd anticipated. So start planning about now for about three years time. Talk to your peers about what they have done recently, what they found useful in the marketplace, who they found useful to talk to would be top tip number two. And top tip number three would be to start talking to stakeholders early. And building a great story and a great, great enthusiasm for what it is you want to do, so that when you come forward with your big budget ask, then everyone's warmed up to it and can see the benefits. 

Charles: Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. Well, I think that's probably a good place to wrap up CRM.

Julie: Okay. 

Charles: CRM projects, they are a big lift, but if you can get yours up and running, it's probably a great way to strengthen client relationships and drive growth. So Julie thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing your insights with us. 

Julie: Yep. Nice to catch up with you. 

Charlie:  You can follow the Passle CMO Series podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.