Will: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series podcast where we discuss all things marketing and business development in professional services. My name is Will Eke and today on the podcast we are going to be talking about how legal marketeers can use advertising to build stronger brands. Today I am excited about Kim Lansdown joining, she's Director of Strategy and Marketing at Fladgate. Kim's career journey is a very interesting one, it's anything but typical. She's worked as a barrister, transitioned into advertising and now leads strategy and marketing, as I say, at Fladgate.

Charlie: The CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle. Passle makes thought leadership simple, scalable and effective so professional services firms can stay front of mind with their clients and prospects when it matters most. Find out more and request a demo at passle.net. Now back to the podcast.

Will: Welcome to the CMO Series podcast.

Kim: It's good to be here.

Will: In this episode, I'm going to be talking to Kim and we're going to delve into how she's brought her advertising experience into the legal space and talk a bit about campaigns as a standout campaign with the Financial Times we're going to dive into. But we also want to navigate through some of the challenges that Kim's encountered driving creative marketing within a law firm and also delve into a bit more about her advice for others looking to use advertising strategies to build a stronger legal brand. And I wanted to start, Kim, your background is pretty fascinating and how you came to be at Fladgate. Maybe you could tell our listeners a bit more about your career journey, especially from being a barrister all the way through to the advertising space and now heading up strategy and marketing at Flabgate. 

Kim: Sure. So yeah, I'd always wanted to be a barrister from a very young age, like too young to know even what it really meant. But I liked the idea of it. And I actually come from a very sort of working class background. And, you know, I worked really hard to get there. I had people on the way saying, you'll never be a barrister because you're a woman and you're, you know, you don't come from the right background. But I did it. I became a criminal barrister and I really enjoyed it. But the criminal bar at the time started its decline. And I was busy because I was sort of junior and doing knockabout, you know, shoplifting cases at Snaresbrook Crown Court or somewhere like that. But I kind of looked at barristers in my chambers who were, you know, the grand old age of about 35, which seemed really old to me then. And I see they weren't in court that often. And it's all state-funded, you know, it's state prosecution, it's legal aid. And I thought, I'm going to get out while I'm young enough to go and do something else because I didn't want to be a solicitor. And I didn't want to be another type of barrister. I wanted to be a criminal barrister. It was that that attracted me. And so I tried to work out what it was I wanted to do next. And I kind of grew up in an era where, you know, advertising was quite cool. People talked about ads and I knew some people in the industry. And I thought, actually, I think I could do that. And in a way, some of the skill sets are not dissimilar. You have to be able to think on your feet. You have to deal with all sorts of different people. So I applied to a number of advertising agencies and it sort of helped having been a barrister as it got me through the door. I think people were intrigued as to why I'd want to give up what's seen as a kind of high-status profession to go into the sort of grubby world of advertising. So yeah, that worked out well for me. And I worked in advertising for over 20 years in the time it was the biggest agency in town for most of it. And I worked on all sorts of brands like Mars and Walkers and Google. The last thing I did was a massive car launch for Fiat with Dynamo making a car appear out of nowhere at the Copper Box in the Olympic Park. So it was, you know, it ran a broad gamut. And then after that I was thinking what should I do next so again I'd enjoyed it but I kind of got comfortable I wasn't nervous in my job anymore it felt very familiar and it's quite a young profession as well advertising and I thought again I'm going to get out of advertising before it gets rid of me especially as women you know you do tend to get pushed out sometimes earlier than the men but I thought I'm going to make the move myself and I was thinking about what to do next. And someone recommended me for a role at Mishcon de Reya So it was head of business development for private client. And I thought, I definitely don't want to do that, but it's probably good experience to go and have a meet them, good interview practice, just get me back in the game. I stood in reception. It was in their older building thinking, no, I'm definitely, definitely not going to do this. And I then met the person who interviewed me. He's Elliot Moss, who people in the industry may well be aware of. He's the chief marketing officer at Mishcon and came out thinking, yeah, this is going to be great. So, and, you know, very inspired and worked at Mishcon for nine years very happily. And then this role came up at Fladgate, which enabled me to, again, take that step, you know, in order to feel that I could fulfill my potential and take the sort of senior role at Fladgate that I found very exciting because it was a firm that's got big ambitions is going places and wants someone like me to help them you know help them on their way with on the marketing side of things so it seemed like a really good move for me.

Will: Yeah it's fascinating and not too far from your old employees as well?

Kim: No, about 50 meters, which made coming up here for interviews a little hairy at times but it all worked out okay.

Will: Oh it's great and yeah, so Dynamo might be turning up at Fladgate. 

Kim: Yeah, exactly. You never know. He's back, isn't he? 

Will: He's brilliant. In terms of, you know, it's a massive change. I know that you've nearly been, well, you've been in the professional service space probably coming on to 10 years now, but what did you find as the main differences when you came, you know, coming into that role compared to a big agency in advertising and what were the immediate things that you wanted to bring from the last industry into law?

Kim: Yes, I think on the whole, professional service firms don't see themselves as brands. And so I think they see themselves as someone providing a service, but don't think about how to differentiate themselves as brands. And I think there's a sort of a, we all like to think that we're not swayed by brands, but we are. You know we're a you know we're an Apple person versus a Samsung person or a Adidas versus a Nike or you know whatever it is we're all drawn to brands and there's there's no reason why that isn't the same in the in the professional services space so although you know the you know the services can be the same you know what we're offering between one firm and another can be very similar the difference is the people which is why business what's what I call traditional business development and it's absolutely fundamental. But you can also make a huge difference by what you do with the brand. And that's something that, you know, Mishcon, you know, did a lot of work on. So when I went there, they were already very much on that journey. And so, yes, it's really about, It's about, you know, making yourself stand out from the crowd for something above and beyond just your people. And the reason for that is if someone recommends you, whether that's an intermediary, recommends you to someone they know or to their client, it's really helpful if they know a bit about you first before they meet you. It's like, oh yeah, I've heard of them. They do this or they're well known for that. The other thing, which is a kind of more, you know, positive thing that I noticed as a difference is that actually they're really creative places, you know lawyers can be very very creative so in advertising you have a creative department they're kind of the product of the firm and everything else is sort of built around it to service it but i think you know and this is not true every lawyer obviously but lawyers can be really creative people so actually creativity can be imbued throughout the business so when you come in as someone who is in the you know the marketing business development space if you can harness that creativity and you know use that to help you know push out your messaging then you know you've got a real chance of success.

Will: Yeah and I think there's also that trust isn't there once you've built the brand it sort of comes in your clients trust it or referrers will trust it and yeah it goes hand in hand with culture as well it sort of comes comes to the part of the brand.

Kim: Yes and I think the key thing for marketeers is to make sure that once they've you know once they've helped you know define the brand and create the brand they protect it you know they protect it for the you know for the long term and they make sure that everything that you do sort of fits within that so you're really you know you're being consistent about what your brand is.

Will: In terms of you know we spoke off camera and you talked about i mentioned at the start a few of the campaigns that you've led already in terms of in the law space at Fladgate there was one particular one in the Financial Times and i wondered if you could tell us a bit more about that campaign how you used your advertising skills and experience to deliver it?

Kim: So the campaign we've just done with the Financial Times, it was really something that we wanted to do to promote our experience in private capital. A lot of our you know most of our clients that we work with are in the private capital space and we wanted to promote that and I think the thing to think about when you're when you're going to go into a kind of partnership or an advertising campaign is it's not good it's not good enough just to put the message out there you know we're in private capital or we service we can service your needs in this way I think that's us you know pushing out a message you you really have to be clear on how you can differentiate yourself. Now, what makes you different from everyone else who wants to say a similar message or who is working in a similar space? So I think you've got to find a way that you can set yourself apart from the competition and what will make you stand out. So for us, we're known for our real deep client relationships. Our line, which I inherited, is around unlimited partnership and the long-term deep partnerships that we grow with our clients. So actually, it was coming out of that, it was fairly easy to develop something that was really true to who we were. And our campaign featured partners with their clients talking about their relationship and the difference that had made to the business, the business that we did with them, but to their business as well. So it was a really nice way to showcase the depth of our relationships in that private capital space but also what made it what made it different for us you know what makes it different for us and what makes it different for our clients. So yeah so that's that campaign's just finished actually so yeah it's we're really pleased with how it went it was also a nice opportunity for us to showcase our clients as well you know the you know some we've got some great clients and it was good to get some coverage for them too.

Will: And talking about I suppose that's an alignment of brands isn't it. I mean everyone knows the FT and everyone trusts around so it's a good one to sort of go look let's marry these up.

Kim:  Yes exactly that and it's you know it's a difficult audience to reach you know when you're trying to talk to people you know it's a broad broad audience but the ft is a great you know a great publication to work where they know what they're doing and they've got you know their credibility you know people want to read things from the FT, they're more likely to read things from the FT than they are to read things from Fladgate so it was important for us to partner with the right people to get our name out there.

Will: In terms of you're not in the grand scheme of things that long into your tenure at Fladgate I know that you recently like a number of firms I was speaking to before the festive break had you know the Fladgate partners conference I mean you've already mentioned a book that's you know 90 day plan how did you use that conference I know you had to present there how did you use that to bring in again your advertising skills internally but also to promote I suppose your vision. What you want to do in the future for the firm?

Kim: Well, obviously, it was a great forum for me to do that. And I've obviously worked with a lot of the partners and spoken to a lot of the partners, but it was a great forum to really showcase the journey that we'd started on actually because I was by then I was about six months six, seven months in so it was great to be able to talk about what we'd done so far what we put in place and what the plans were for the future the FT was just about to launch that was quite nice I was able to put that up for the first time I think from what you know what I bought from advertising really is about being what you're taught in advertising all the time is really distilling things down to simple, simple messages. And I think it's very easy to try and shoehorn everything in, but you, you really need to sort of distill what it is you're trying to do so that you're getting one or two messages across, not trying to, to sort of bombard them with a massive long PowerPoint with, you know, lots and lots of bullet comments. So I think it's about being really clear, being very succinct about what it was you want to do, but you've also got to kind of, you know create some impact and excitement you know if bd can't you know can't generate a bit of energy in the room then nobody can so you know I used you know videos you know I like a good mood film I did a lot of that in my advertising days and you know a video that really tried to showcase what. We've done so far you know bring some energy into the room so it was some you know it was some thinking around you know how you communicate but also so the sizzle as well you need a bit of sizzle in there I think from BD.

Will: Cool yeah the video side yeah must be a standout you know using all of those expertise especially shaking up a law firm partner conference.

Kim: Yeah it was it was quite funny actually because we it was after lunch so it's always a bit more of a subdued spot but the you know we had a good sort of thumping soundtrack and it was actually a bit too loud it came on so it really did wake everybody up when it came on so I know they were paying attention.

Will: Yeah got the place rocking.

Kim: Yeah exactly

Will: Again from the advertising side what do you sort of see as your key principles and strategies that you've taken and that you're rolling out across the law firm space at the moment?

Kim:  I think if I sort of think of what you know one thing I really tried to hold true to all the time is encouraging people to be human in the way that we communicate because I think it's very easy when you're an expert as lawyers are and you know we've got a lot of things to say and a lot of things to talk about to try and get all that knowledge out there and to do it in a way that is you know that is can make it hard for people to engage with so I you know one of my managers just just be human think about how you consume media So. You know, if any of us, we like, you know, short articles are getting shorter and shorter in this day and age because we've all got, you know, lack of attention now. But, you know, how do we like to consume media, you know? What are we thinking about when we want to read an article about X or Y? Do we need visuals? Do we like lots of dense text? Probably not. So I always try to say people think about how you are and then communicate to people in the same way. Sometimes people think in their work role, they have to sort of push things out to show the way that they think and the lawyer that they are. So I always think, you know, don't just push stuff out because we want to tell people about it. Be human. think about what our clients really want to hear. And I think any marketeer who listens to this podcast would be slightly rolling their eyes because it's kind of 101 of marketing is, you know, start with the client or the person you're communicating to and talk to them, not push out what it is you think you want to say. But it's obvious, but it's not always followed. You know, sometimes it's quite hard to sort of hold to that and say, actually, is this motivating? Or you say to people, okay, yeah, we can talk about that, but let's find a way in that's really going to grab people's attention and they're going to want to read more about it. 

Will: I was thinking about the advertising side. A picture says a thousand words sometimes, especially with outdoor advertising or print advertising, doesn't it? There's not loads of text on there to your... No. It's just quite visual. But of course, the consumer gets normally what it is very quickly and the message conveys, isn't it? 

Kim: Exactly. And you can use that to draw people in and hopefully they'll want to engage further and click through and read more and find out a bit more detail about what it is you want to say. 

Will: To start putting your partner's headshots and outdoor space everywhere.

Kim: Yeah I think you know this for me this is I see this all the time on websites you know people when you when you're talking to people we're going to be looking at our website which which you know it's one of the projects we're going to look at but people want to put everything on there you know everything on their profile like a really long page everything on it's like well you know when you go onto a website you know how much do you really you're really looking for so it's it's you know it's It's hard to hold people to these things sometimes, but it's the right thing to do.

Will: You've probably mentioned some of them there, but in terms of implementing some of these key strategies and your principles, what are… The main challenges that you found your two law firms that you worked at I think I think the challenge is often in professional services is that you're asking people to do things that are out of their comfort zone you know if you when you look at you know a lot they're very comfortable with business development you know what I call traditional bd you know they're comfortable with that and they're comfortable with the networking and you know the things they used to if you're getting them to step out of that and to you know go and do something in the Financial Times or you wherever it may be that's not in their comfort zone they're not used to raising their head above the parapet in quite that way it's also expensive you know compared to a lot of the things you do you have to make you know significant investment to do things like that so I think I mean really all you can do is make sure that you're you know you're properly prepared and that you can really make your case so really think about you know, A: telling the story in the right way so that they you know you take them on that journey as to why it's the right thing to do why it will reach the audience that you've done your research ahead of time so that you know why this you know why you're recommending this and ultimately what they're going to get out of it at the end and then you really have to track it and make sure you know make sure you are you know delivering and and and making sure it does you know does deliver what you're what you're hoping it will and if you've done your research properly and you've got a good partnership with the you know with the publication or with the agencies producing your ads or whatever it might be then. You should go in fairly confident that you're going to you're going to achieve what you want to from it.

Will: I think that's it's a very interesting point in terms of putting ahead above the parapet because to your point lawyers aren't trained to do that are they're trained that they do it very very well and they have success with what they're doing they're yeah great money they're doing why should they that's their argument right yes actually yeah your point at the start the other sides of the business the business services whoever you know you are trying to change things up and you're you know if you're moving up in your career as well you're taking not a risk but you're you're out of your comfort zone again and lawyers don't tend to need to do that they're not trained to do that they don’t like failing do they.

Kim: And also it's a highly competitive world and as I said at the beginning you know a lot of the services that are offered are similar you know you'd hope you know lawyers in one firm are very good at the law and they might be very good at the law in another firm so you know you have to understand it's not just about that it is about you know making yourself stand out and people thinking they're going to be interesting people to work with.

Will: Bringing that human side again as you say yes the transactional yeah.

Kim: Yeah yeah and the brand thing again a brand you feel affinity with actually that's my type of brand you know they do build long-term client relationships they do work with interesting entrepreneurs that chimes with me.

Will: Amazingly Kim we're nearly at the end as always though Kim I'm just going to ask you a few questions outside the topic that we're on here for. So if you don't mind, I'm going to do a few quickfire questions. And the first one, don't know if it was influenced by the Christmas break at all, but what are you currently listening to? And it could be a book, could be music, could be podcast. What are you into at the moment? 

Kim: Well, it's a podcast because I'm really into podcasts and it's called Kill List. I'm slightly late to the party with it, but it's quite dark and it's about an alleged hit list on the dark web where people are paying for people they know to be taken out basically and I highly recommend it it's very good it sort of answers you know ask questions about, responsibility of journalists and things like that as well as what's going on the dark web.

Will:  That does sound intriguing I've made a note of that because I haven't heard of it. Cool okay what's the best piece of advice you've ever received and that can be in work or outside by the way.

Kim: So this was from a woman at a conference, a woman called Jacqueline Gold, who is the woman who set up Ann Summers, actually. She passed away a few years ago, but it really struck me. But she said, if you're not nervous in your job, you're not fulfilling your potential. And I think that struck me because it was exactly what I needed to hear at the time, where I was a bit nervous about taking a leap into something different. And I thought that's spot on. If you're too comfortable, you're probably not fulfilling your potential. 

Will: Sure yeah good advice I always say that if your next career move if you feel uncomfortable you don't know half the things you're going to be doing that's probably a good move yeah what's a book or resource that you'd recommend to any of your peers in the professional service space at the moment I'm not have to be honest I'm not a big one for business books I just never have been i know some people get a lot out of them but I do recommend a book called the first 90 days and I've forgotten who it's by but it's very famous and it's very useful when again you're stepping into a new role because it helps you work out what it is you need to leave behind and what you need to focus on when you step into the new role and I always read that before moving into a new you know if I transition into something bigger so.

Will: Good stuff thank you what's your favourite way to unwind after a busy day?

Kim: That's quite easy. That's a glass of wine in front of the fire if it's winter or in the garden if it's summer.

Will: You're doing damp January as opposed to dry January. 

Kim: I'm definitely not doing dry January.

Will: Yeah, definitely damp January. Like the best of us. Tricky one this, where's your favourite place, or it might not be for you, where's your favourite place to visit and why?

Kim: I thought, originally when I thought about this question, I thought somewhere like, I've been to some places that I just thought were amazing, but actually my favourite place to visit is Cornwall. I used to go there as a child and so it's got lots of very, you know, I think if you have happy childhood holidays, you'll always want to go back to that place. So I tend to go to Cornwall at least once a year and hire a cottage and walk the coast and do it out season away from the crowds.

Will: Yeah, a beautiful place and it's also great for sort of digital detox, isn't it, as well? You can't get a reception down there.

Kim: Yeah exactly.

Will: Lovely stuff. Kim, last question and you know we've talked a lot about your backgrounds and bringing advertising in but I'm going to ask this holistically you know what what would your one piece of advice be for people listening to this your peers in terms of you know building a strategy at a law firm that can be around anything.

Will: I would say don't waver in the sense that if you're very clear about what you're the brand you're trying to build stick to it because it takes a long time to build a brand you can't do it in you know six months you know it takes time it takes investment and it takes consistency. And I think there are you know two elements of that, is lots of people have an opinion on brand and what things should look like and can I just do this one slightly differently and you know I know what you're doing but I want to do mine in a slightly different way you've got to say no. Because you need consistency, if you're in a law firm with you know 100 partners or 200 lawyers and they're all doing their own you know they all want their own little tweak then you end up with nothing. You've really got to be sort of clear on what it is you stand for and you've got to hold people to that and as I say it takes time to build a brand and so you've got to bear with it because again they'll lose interest a bit. After a year or so, they’ll say we did that last year can we do something different it's like no you know you need to you need to be consistent.

Will: Fascinating stuff, Kim, thank you again for jumping on um and there's loads of lovely gold nuggets in there for our listeners to take from so thank you for your time.

Kim: Great, thank you.

Charlie: You can follow the Passle CMO Series podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.