Perceived resistance from clients and a strong focus on billable hours could explain why law firms have been slower to adopt client listening programs.

Today on the Passle CMO Series, Will Eke is lucky to welcome JeanMarie Campbell, Regional CMO and Head of Client Development for North America at Baker McKenzie, to discuss her career journey and the pivotal moment she recognized the crucial role of client listening in law firms.

JeanMarie and Will explore: 

• JeanMarie’s career journey to her current role at Baker McKenzie
• The moment in her career JeanMarie realized the importance of client listening
• How to take client listening from the finance industry back into legal
• What client listening programs and initiatives look like at Baker McKenzie and how to embed a culture of client feedback across the firm
• How client listening feeds into and informs the marketing and business development strategy
• Success stories and where client feedback has had a direct impact on business development
• Advice for marketing and BD leaders looking to implement a client listening program

Transcription: 

Welcome to the CMO Series Podcast where we discuss all things marketing and business development. My name is Will Eke and today we're gonna be talking about client listening 101. The perceived resistance from clients and a strong focus on billable hours could explain why law firms have been a bit slow to adopt client listening programs.

Today, we're gonna explore the valuable lessons firms can take from a client's perspective to successfully implement client listening and enhance their overall client experience. What better person to join us today than Jean Marie Campbell. She's the regional CMO and Head of Client Development for North America at Baker McKenzie. We will discuss her remarkable career journey and the crucial role of client listening in legal marketing and business development. Absolutely thrilled. Welcome, JeanMarie.

JeanMarie: Thank you so much, Will. It is such a pleasure to be here and I'm so grateful for the opportunity to speak with you today. 

Will: Real looking forward to your answers on this. We're going to get into client listening now, which I know is a real passion of yours.  So the first question really is, can you tell us a bit more about your career journey, your current role at Baker McKenzie and how you got there?

JeanMarie: Course. So I'm at Baker McKenzie for about four years now in a matter of weeks, which is just unbelievable how time flies. But I'll start at the beginning, I practiced law for about nine years, started as a bankruptcy lawyer and then spent most of my time in M&A and private equity and I loved it. I was one of those crazy lawyers who loved the deals. And then I hit the wall and said, “Wow, I'd like to do something else. But in a law firm.” And that's when I applied to Akin Gump and met Kim Koopersmith who gave me a chance and I moved into a business role. I was there about seven years in a talent role in professional development. And then in strategy and then I decided to go to a client. I said, “If I really want to bring some special sauce to law firms, I need to go and be a client. So I went to AllianceBernstein. It's an international finance firm. And I worked in the legal department as the COO managing the lawyers and selecting outside counsel. Eye opening to work at a client and sort of be the person who's the buyer of legal services. It was really, I say that's where the magic happens. I think we'll talk later about that. I then decided to go back to a law firm. It was time and I went to Ropes & Gray as a Client Relationship Executive focusing on client programs. Pfizer was one of my clients and dabbled into the world of client listening, which we'll talk a little bit more. Then I went to Orrick, I was recruited by the lovely Catherine Zinn and helped her create client programs from the ground up at Orrick, it was fascinating. And then it was there that Wendy Bernero who has been my longtime mentor and professional guru and friend, she recruited me to come to Baker and take her role as she was moving into the global CMO role. And here I am four years later at Baker.

Will: Wow, that is a journey and a half. And probably a huge network to go with. I think Catherine Zinn has actually been on our podcast before as well.So, wow, that that's a big old journey. Was there a moment in your career that you realized the importance of the whole client listening aspect? I think you touched upon it there. But is there more detail you can add?

JeanMarie: Yes. At Bernstein again, being a client and sitting in that client seat when lawyers come and request RFPs and pitches. But there was one small firm that we did a little bit of work with. Not a whole lot and they called and said, we'd like to come in and chat with you and get some feedback on the work we're doing with you. We thought it was a little odd and we thought, you know, I reported to the general counsel and we were very good friends and we said, “Oh, they're gonna come in, they're gonna sell us something” and I said, “You know, let's give them a chance. It seems unusual. We've never gotten a request.” So in comes this smaller firm, they were not there to sell us anything. They didn't bring any pitch books. They brought some data and stats on all the things that they are working on with us. And they asked all kinds of questions about what they could be doing better. How is their service? Who are we working with? What are other firms doing that delight them? What are things they could be doing better? It was eye opening and fascinating. And when they left the general counsel and I looked at each other and said, “We're gonna give them more work.” It was just one of those moments where the only law firm in five years or he said, in his whole career that asked the question, what can we be doing better? What are we good at and what else can we be doing for you? So that was the moment that I said this notion of whether you call it client feedback or client listening is magic. 

Will: That's a great story and it leads me on to it. I mean, so you obviously realized they were onto something good there. You gave them more business flipping it the other side when you came back to the law industry. I mean, how did you then take the client listening approach from finance and bring it back to legal? 

JeanMarie: I think often it's a cultural fit, is your first question. Second question is using data to convince firm leaders that this is an important use of time. I found early on that lawyers would say “Clients don't want to hear from us. They don't want us to traipse in there and ask for feedback. They'll think we're looking for a pat on the back” and it took some convincing that no, that's not what we're doing. We're going in there to ask them, how are we doing? Tell us the good things. So we'll continue to do that, help us fix the things are not working and help us understand who else is doing things that we could be doing. Just starting out with firm leadership to make the case and share the data. I think also making it very easy for partners creating a program starting with your highest and most important clients. That's really where I started. I mean at Baker McKenzie, we have a firm wide client listening program. We also have regional ones that I oversee North America that feed into it. And really the remit is to focus on our clients in our client programs first and make it part of the process of how we service our clients get it in the water and create a culture where asking for feedback is part of what we do on an annual basis, on a matter basis. And really just bring it to the firm in a way where this is best practices.

Will: You touched upon data there. We hear it quite a lot that's often a way to help drive that behavioral change or to back up, you know, what you're trying to say with firm leadership. And of course, getting those big clients on board, they can't, you know, they can't ignore the big clients giving feedback. So it's a very clever way of doing it. You sort of answered my next question a bit, but I'm gonna ask it anyway, what do client listening programs and initiatives look like at Baker McKenzie and how have you em embedded that in the culture of client feedback across the firm?

JeanMarie: Yes. So the program is something that I think we're very proud of. Again, on the global side, we have a global client listening program and then we have a North America client listening program and it's the sister programs we report into leadership on not only the quantitative, how many we do because that is part of the equation, but then the qualitative understanding what the themes are, are there things that we're seeing that we could easily fix? And I think bringing a client listening program to a firm, if someone was starting out, you know, it's one of those things that you just, you're looking for successes, you're looking for champions. I mean, one thing we did that I was really excited, someone on the team thought of it was not my idea, but it was his brilliant idea. Was to have a pledge month, right? Like you see on television, the month of November is pledge, a client listening and that is where we got some really great traction where we got the attention of partners and client service directors, which are our relationship partners. And that created a buzz, right? We tried to highlight it and recognize folks who are leading the charge at some of our town halls and our CEO talking about it in his monthly newsletter. So I think starting with something that's not so complicated but making it easy for partners and starting at the top with our most important clients.

Will: Correct me if I'm wrong as well. JeanMarie,  I think we've discussed this before, but I haven't really heard it from any other law firm, everyone has, you know, partner getaway or partner summits. But, but you guys invite, you have a specific day that you invite clients to as well. Is that correct at Bakers?

JeanMarie: Yes. Another aspect of how we fit it in the culture is we have partner retreats like all firms do, but I've never been at a firm where part of the partner retreat includes client conferences and those client conferences are client listening sessions, right? The agenda is driven by our client. We come to them with information and data and trends and we know so much about their business. But part of that client conference, which is usually a half a day is a client listening aspect as well. And that in itself meeting with clients during a partner retreat to me was so unique and it just says that clients are the most important part of bringing our partners together. 

Will: Yeah, it sounds amazing. It sounds like surely other firms will bring that into the mix as well because the it's huge trust gains as well. I'm sure in terms of the whole client listening strategy, as you say, you've got a global one, you've got a North American one, I'm sure you get loads of amazing data, as you say, qualitative quantitative feedback. How do you and the team then feed that into things like marketing and business development and the strategy that you're gonna push that side.

JeanMarie: Well, I think the most important part of the client listening program is using the information to drive strategy. Otherwise it's it's just an exercise and chatting with a client we download so much of the the data based on themes based on issues. And then our information does drive strategy both on the regional level, but most importantly on the client level, right? When we meet with clients and we hear that some things are not going so well or they love working with a certain group, it helps us make sure that for the next year, we're creating a strategy around our client's agenda, right? It's always about the client's agenda, not our agenda. 

Will: That makes sense. And do you have any success stories that you can sort of bring to life where client feedback has had if you like a direct impact on business development? I know it's quite hard sometimes to quantify these, but have you got any examples at all that you can share?

JeanMarie: And it is hard to quantify, right? Sometimes it's a feeling sometimes you get work many months later and can you really equate it to that meeting? But we do have some concrete, one in particular. I was fortunate enough to sit in and help direct the client listening meeting.  It's usually the CEO and a BD professional. Sometimes it's a BD professional and a more senior, in this case, it was the partner's right hand BD person and me, right? We do not like to have the partner who works with the client in the room because we find that our clients are more forthcoming. And the success of this was that we were doing a certain amount of work but not in other areas. And when I was digging into all the data in the prep, I kept asking the relationship partner, why aren't we doing this area, that area? And he said, you know, “I've asked, I've asked” and during that meeting, we asked our client, “What's on their mind? What did they see in the future? How are we doing?” And when it got to what's next, and he started talking about an area that we have a sweet spot, right? Data privacy, you know, security. And I just, you know, I looked at the person next to me because we were on Zoom. It was, you know, during COVID and said, you know, we actually, if it would be helpful, happy for you to talk to one of our partners about that very issue. We're working with a similar organization and it just might be helpful to brainstorm with them. Well, out of that work came a relationship and just the platform of what we share with this client has expanded. So oftentimes it's just asking asking what's on their mind sharing. Perhaps some of the things that we're doing for other like clients and at the end of the day, it's not about selling, right? It's about helping our clients solve their problems or just having them talk with a lawyer and not necessarily engage. But we were lucky and we uncovered and we surfaced that information. Other success stories is we've surfaced some issues around billing, right? I think sometimes that's the elephant in the room and our partners, they don't really want to deal with the billing. Well, this was a little bit of an issue for this client and it was an easy fix and it was something we fixed in a week and the client was thrilled and I think the very next week sent us a new matter, right? So I think you ask, you will hear and then what do you do with that information is the critical piece. 

Will: It's really interesting because again, you're sort of leveraging your role as the CMO to do that, to build the relationship. It's interesting that you said, you know, you don't include the partners in that side of things. And I think you saw today, I just did a summary of some of the BTI consulting research about, they're talking about lateral hires in terms of CMOs in law firms. And the bit they conclude with is a CMO should do that part and they're a real asset to the firm because the client listening piece, you know, it can be that you get bits of bits of information, golden nuggets that the partners can't out of a client or you can cement the relationship or that the relationship's gone a bit sour. The CMO can actually patch things up with relationship building with stuff like that. So it's really interesting that you touch upon that as well because it just, yeah, it really resonates in terms of that research that I saw.

JeanMarie: Yes, I read that, I found that really fascinating. But one thing I think is interesting, firms often toy with hiring an outside consultant to do their feedback and their client listening. And I've been at firms where we've done that and sometimes from a pure volume, it's necessary. But I think when ever possible, having a senior BD person, having the CMO having a senior, your leader, sometimes our CEO will do it with one of our BD team members. There's something about what we know about the firm and what we embody in values and culture that I'm not sure a consultant can bring that to bear. 

Will: Amazingly, the time has gone very quickly. We're on to the last question and this is an important one because you've given so many great bits of advice and I'm gonna try and nail you down to one bit. So if I'm a CMO if I'm a firm that hasn't done this before, but I'm about to start it. What would your one piece of advice be for those marketing BD leaders looking to, looking to kickstart a client listening program?

JeanMarie: I would say go to the willing, make it easy for partners and go to those who think this is valuable and start there. 

Will: There we go. Heard it first here. Just gonna do a quick fire question round if that's OK.

So I'm gonna start with, what's your favorite business and non-business book? 

JeanMarie: So my favorite business book, that's a tough one. But when I really get down to it, I would say Give and Take by Adam Grant that power of helping others and how our interaction with others really drives success and happiness. It really had a big impact on how I approach business. And on the nonbusiness book, I would say The Book Thief, it's a book that one of my high school daughters was reading for a class and I picked it up.

It's by Markus Zusak and it really was so impactful. Just changed the way I thought about cultures and history. It was complicated, it was touching, it was thought provoking. So those would be my two if I had to pick two.

Will: I always write those down.So I'll be checking those out, Jean Marie afterwards. Second quick fire question is, what was your first job?

JeanMarie: My first job was a camp counselor at a day camp and I took care of five year olds and the biggest challenge of that summer is I had to direct the play grease for eight and 10 year olds. So that was my debut as a director. Probably my first and last direction of a play.

Will: Wow. Yeah. That really puts my first job in a Turkey factory, getting the giblets out, into touch. That's a pretty special first job. What makes you, I know you're gonna be great answering this one, what makes you happy at work?

JeanMarie: I would say working with an amazing team, seeing people succeed. I love sharing ideas and learning. I love seeing people learn and excel.  I love also having an impact on the firm and what we're doing, seeing how it matters. So that really brings me joy, really, the team, the work and seeing others succeed.

Will: What are you listening to at the moment? It could be a podcast, music or audio book or whatever takes your fancy.

JeanMarie: Well, every morning I go on a run and sometimes it's a walk or a jog, but I always listen to Blinkist  I don't know if you're familiar with that app. It's books summarized. And so that to me has been so wonderful. Listening to many different books this morning. In fact, I listened to Happy Mind, Happy Life by Doctor Ragan Chatterjee. It just talks about the science behind mental well-being. It's about 12 minutes and it's just fascinating to be able to get an overview of books. And then I also listen to headspace that meditation app which all has a running and a walking component. And that sort of sets me right for the day. 

Will: Blinkist, I have heard of and I didn't check it out. A friend recommended it to me.

So I again, I've written it down. So thank you for jogging my memory because that seems really useful to get summaries of books in 12 minutes. I might know the answer to this because you were talking about where you're going on vacation earlier on. But where is your favorite place to visit and why?

JeanMarie: Well, that's an easy one since we were talking earlier. I would say Italy, I have family who live in Italy. I think Sicily is one of the most beautiful places. I've been Catania, Syracuse, Mount Etna actually on Sunday night, it just erupted and closed the airport down. So I'm hoping I'll be fine by the end of the week. But I think Italy in general, but Sicily specifically is one of my favorite places to visit.

Will: There we go, great food and also a bit of danger by the sounds of it, you know, great concoction. JeanMarie, as always, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for giving us your time on a really, really interesting topic that you know so much about. So, thank you for that.

JeanMarie:  Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me, pleasure to do this.