For any seasoned marketing and BD professional, it can be tempting to make the move into the world of consulting and set up as a sole trader.

While there are rewards to be reaped, there are also many factors to consider before you take the plunge. Today, Will Eke has the pleasure of sitting down with someone who has successfully made the leap. 

Susanne Pugsley, Founder, Managing Director, and Consultant at Pugsley Sidwell Business Development, joins the CMO Series Podcast to share the highs and the lows and what it really takes to become a successful Marketing & BD Consultant in the professional services industry.

Susanne and Will discuss: 

• Susanne’s career journey and how she came to be a Marketing and BD Consultant
• The main challenges faced when first setting up as a sole trader
• The most interesting or enlightening aspects of being a consultant compared to being in-house in law firms
• How to go about setting a price structure and justifying your value
• The appetite for business development support
• The dos and don’ts of working with law firms
•  Advice for others looking to set up as a Marketing & BD Consultant

Transcription: 

Will: Welcome to the Passle CMO series podcast where we discuss all things marketing and business development. My name is Will Eke and today, very interesting topic that's slightly out there compared to the normal subjects, we're gonna be talking about what it takes to become a marketing and business development consultant. For any seasoned marketing and BD professionals, it can be really tempting to make the move into the world of consulting and set up as a sole trader. While there are huge rewards to be reaped, there are also many factors to consider before you take the plunge. Today, great pleasure sitting down with someone who's successfully made that leap, we welcome Susie Pugsley to the CMO Series podcast and she's gonna join us today and share some highs, some lows, about what it actually takes to become a successful marketing and BD consultant in the professional services industry. So welcome and hi Susie! 

Susanne: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Will: Finally got you on. I know, especially at this sort of time of year, some people will have had that sort of thought over Christmas, what shall I do? Is it time to move on? Shall I go out on my own? So firstly, can you tell us a bit about your career journey and how you've come to be in terms of your marketing and BD consultancy?

Susanne: Been doing this for a while now. I began my career in the charity sector, so I was working agency side and I moved quickly to in-house because I much preferred it, preferred very much giving the brief rather than having to fulfill it in many ways. So once I'd established I preferred to be in-house back in my early career because it was easier to learn and network again and make connections through incarnations of going from there and into the military and then into the technology sector and I was there in the ‘.com’ bubble. So, you know, companies were going bust left, right and centre so you had to be quick moving. You were never in a job for very long because the company often wasn't there for very long. I got sick of that and I moved into the legal sector in the early two thousands and, for stability really, and also to bring to it. It was a new area where there wasn't a lot of marketing and BD already. It was nascent in the BD and marketing and professional services at that point. So I brought my sort of technology background and my social background to it, and I loved it! And I found that I had a wide knowledge and I have throughout my career done many different roles from marketing, PR, you know, design, now we call it digital - in those days it was e-media - into brand communication etc and rebranding and ended up in the BD end of the market. So really focusing on that business development, CRM. CRM became my life mantra when I was in various law firms and someone said to me well into my career, ‘Why don't you be a consultant?’ And I said, ‘Oh no, I much prefer being in-house and I know where I am’. And then I looked back at my career and went well, actually, I haven't been anywhere for a large amount of time, I seem to be heavily project-based, so why not go and do this on a consulting basis rather than do it in-house? But when I had that thought, I just started at an American firm that I absolutely loved working at, Morgan, Lewis & Bockius, but I did know that if I was ever going to go out on my own, I probably at some point, I was getting married at the time, I was likely to be having children, I needed to have a portfolio of a career that was - would resonate with some, perhaps smaller firms. I didn't think I would be targeting huge firms. So I moved consciously, setting up my plan. I moved consciously to a smaller firm so I could have more high street credentials, sort of less corporate finance and more legal services that would resonate across a wider area and from there, after I had my first child, I went right, I'm gonna take the plunge and go out on my own because I thought that would give me the flexibility that I was looking for to be able to set my own timetable, set my own agenda and be able to work around you know my new situation of a family life. Yes, that was a slight pipe dream but because I haven't quite- I underestimated, you know, the amount of stuff you have to do and the pipeline, and try and do all that with a 10-month-old baby was perhaps slightly naive, you know, you put yourself up, you work at it, and you carry on and I think for me, it's much more exciting to be on that project side or, you know, be able to come in and, give that outside view, than be enmeshed in the internal politics and have been there a long time and you're doing a great job and many people who work in house, do a fantastic job. But sometimes you need a fresh pair of eyes on it and that's the bit that excites me is being able to look at a situation with that external clarity and maybe offer some guidance around how to tweak that process or reengineer it. 

Will: It sounds like sort of timing is key. You've also gotta sort of take that plunge and I suppose that leads me on to the next question which sometimes, you know, the best-laid plans can look good, but there are obviously challenges that come with that. What were the main ones that you sort of faced when you set up outside of juggling with childcare?

Susanne: It's the changes are you go from having an entire support network around you internally, you know, someone who will provide your IT equipment, support your IT problems, you know, you have a finance department who deals with your pay and your, you know, everything that you need in terms of your financial side. You have HR, you have multiple layers of support in-house, that you don't have when you're out on your own obviously. And you have to become all of those things to yourself, you know. My advice is, I found I needed to find a good accountant to support me who understood and it took several incarnations to find the right fit because you really need an accountant who understands where you are and what your aspirations are, and how you want to structure your finances and how you want to manage it. And most professional services firms won't hire a self-employed person because of IR35 and other things, so you need to be a limited company and you know, once you hit a certain point, you're going to be that registered. There's a lot of logistics you need to deal with. The other side of it being, you know, when your IT equipment breaks down or if your Teams doesn't work or if your printer's not working, you know, it's down to you to fix it. There's no little person on the end of the phone who's going to come and help you. So again, it took me a long time to find the right IT support that I can rely on, but a lot of it you have to do yourself. It's the same with your billing department. You know, you send your bills out, and people don't pay them, how long are you going to take to chase them? And all of these things take time, and I think it gives you a much greater appreciation really of the lawyers and accountants and other professionals that we support in our roles because suddenly you realise, you know, there's a lot of time taken away from what you're trying to deliver as your actual job, is taken away on admin that you don't really want to be doing. So it's surrounding yourself with the right people. It's everything from your website to your, you know, your own promotion of your own PR and marketing for yourself, as opposed to what you're trying to achieve for your clients. So, and so the challenges really are, you know, time and product, and understanding, you know, how you're going to deliver all of those things. And that's aside from things like, you know, and whilst I'm doing all this, who's going to be looking after my children? And with my clients don't pay the bills, how am I going to support myself? So it's, you know, there are challenges around logistics, I think of the start up issues and also if it's the right time. I mean it- have you really assessed who your audience are and who is going to be your main clients and pipeline of work? I think when I first started out, I thought because I knew lots of lawyers, I'd get lots of work from law firms, but the lawyers don't have the gift of the work, you know, it's the business development director or, you know, the manager or, the person that's in charge of that particular area is the one that you need to be targeting. Whilst it's lovely to have lots of recommendations from lawyers you've worked with and make sure you have those as testimonials and you know, that body of evidence of what you've done, they're not the people that are going to instruct you. So you've got to recalibrate and you know, understanding where you sit in the food chain, where your price point is, all those things. So they're quite interesting challenges to address.

Will: Yeah, and you touched upon it and you've got to practice what you preach. If you're on the BD side, you have to do it yourself as well, don't you? So you have to keep that, as you mentioned, the pipeline going. Where's the next bit of work gonna come from?-

Susanne: Yeah

Will: But they're the challenges, but I imagine it's also been, you know, hugely enlightening as well and interesting in terms of setting up. What were the main comparisons with you going solo compared to when you were in-house would you say?

Susanne: I think the most freeing part of becoming a consultant is that you're no longer sort of entrenched in the politics of the firm. And every firm has politics, and every firm has a culture, and whether they're good, bad or indifferent, but, you know, you can free yourself from that and just focus on the issue that you've been brought in to look at or the project you've been brought in to work on. And that I find very liberating as a very positive side of it. And also it's a finite, particularly some of the training and the coaching and mentoring, you know, it's very rewarding to see them grow and you can really focus on that whilst at the same time, not trying to manage your day job in, you know, whether you're a multi-manager or a BD manager or a director in a firm, you know, but you don't have the time to devote to them as a consultant, you can really focus in on the people you're mentoring or training and see how they grow. And you know, it's a discrete piece of work, training. I love running training courses because off the back of that, you get to meet lots and lots of people, which as I've already said, is one of my favourite things. So I have a lot of new LinkedIn contacts, new networks to talk to and that grows your pipeline from that because, you know, I enjoy it. Hopefully from the feedback forms that I get, they enjoy my training and therefore, I get recommendations and I get contacts from all over the place. So it's- that's a real boost to your confidence and enjoyment of what you're doing that you feel people are, what you're saying is resonating with the people you're talking to.

Will: In terms of- you mentioned it before briefly when you start out, how do you even go about sort of setting a price structure. And after that, you know, once you've got a bit of work, how do you really justify your value when delivering it? 

Susanne: One of the first questions I have a lot of people approach me regularly to ask about, should they go out on their own and set up, and how much should they charge? And, you know, it really is, you have to do your research as to, you know and if you've been in-house, you tend to know how much people charge because you've hired consultants yourself and you look at why they feel they can justify the price that they're charging you or you can, you know, negotiate them down. My view has always been that I priced the job according to, you know, one, it's actually my mentor said to me when I once was saying well, I haven't, you know,have I done enough hours to justify this bill? And they were like well, they're not a lawyer, they're not actually paying you by the hour. They're paying you for your expertise, your knowledge, your experience, you know, the speed with which you can hit the ground running on this project. You know, all those things are wrapped up in it or in of my projects. It's more about they wanted my little black book of lawyers really, it was a firm of accountants who wanted me to introduce them to a lot of people. So it wasn't anything about what I knew, it was all about who I knew. So, you look at the pricing and I've always viewed it as do I want to do this because that tends to inform it and what is my- what are my overheads that I need to cover? And then what do I feel I need on top of that? Now, I'm very lucky in that I'm not on my own and I have other support, financial support at home, so I can be a bit more flexible. But if you are alone, and that is what I'll say to people is you need to figure out what price you can afford to work for because you can't work for nothing. You don't want to be paying them because once you get that registered and once you've become, you know, more successful, you are- you need to make sure that your profit margin, and always it's not about the price, it's about the profit, is it the correct amount of profit for what you're doing? And are you bringing value to them? And can you demonstrate that? And I know some people who charge a huge amount more than me and always say I'm, you know, undercutting them, but at the same time, I know people who charge a lot less than me but they're comfortable that that is the amount they are happy to charge. So it really is how long is a piece of string as to how you're gonna price it. But whenever you're- when I- whether I am pricing up a job and providing a proposal, I'm also taking the factor of, you know, what's their ability to pay because if they're a small firm and they're struggling, I'm not going to charge them city rates. But you will find that huge firms want to pay a lot less than mid-size and small firms who bizarrely are happy to pay more.

Will: I know it well Susie.Yes, indeed yeah, I suppose that there is that fine line when you're starting out of, you know,not giving too much away for not for free, but, you know, valuable advice just to get your name out there because I suppose once you get more settled into the role, then that's when the pricing structure- you feel like you can stick to it and trust it a bit more. When it comes to- and we often hear this, we've talked about, spoken about this before, you and I Susie, but when it comes to sort of marketing and business development, it seems especially in the legal space, sometimes it's shoehorned in, some of the bigger firms, they do have the luxury of being able to split it out and they have a CMO then a CMBDO sometimes, or CBDO or whatever you want to call it. Do you feel there's more appetite, especially as you- you're leaning to that side on the business development side, or do you think, you know, they should go very much hand in hand? 

Susanne: You definitely cannot have one without the other. I think the reason, it is in many ways, it's sales and marketing but as we know in the legal space in particular, the word sales has been a ‘dirty’ word for many years. So what essentially is a sales and marketing function becomes marketing and BD and intrinsically, lawyers view business development in a positive sense because they view it as something that building business and therefore, commercially bringing in money. Whereas they view, you know, rightly or wrongly, many of them view marketing as you know, the cushions and colouring in department where we're just making nice websites and brochures and it's end money rather than make money, which as we both know is misnomer. But the fact is that there's that sort of mental adjustment to make to understand that- and I think a lot of people try and transition. They start out with marketing. We have to start out with marketing because you've got to have your profile, you've got to have your brand, you've got to set your stall out and then once the work starts to flow in, you've got to really focus on that business development aspect. But it is a little tendency where if I'm not fully aware of the differing, I do a Venn diagram which I always give to new clients who are trying to say to me, well what's the difference between BD and marketing anyway? And I go, and don't forget communication because that's also a very key part. Where does it live? And, you know, people not understanding where CRM lives because does that live in BD? Does it live in marketing? Does it live in marketing and communications? You know, where does all these aspects sit and many firms astound me even now after, you know, 20 plus years of doing this will still come to me and go ‘Could you really explain to me what all these different people in a BD marketing team do?’ And I'm like well, it's just the same as you've got employment lawyers, corporate lawyers, dispute lawyers. They're all lawyers, but they're not all doing the same thing. Same with us, you know, this is what a PR person does, this is what a BD person does, but obviously in the more sophisticated, and it's where the firm is on the maturity curve, as to whether they really get those nuances and what you're trying to achieve, and what they need to do first, and no firm is the same because they're all at a different point and that doesn't tend to, I find relate to size, you know. I've known huge firms, no idea what they were doing, tiny firms who are completely on it and had, you know, all the aspects of their marketing, the BD department really working very well, so it's about getting under the head of those firms and going, you know, what is it that you want to achieve? And then we'll tell you whether it's a marketing play first or if it's a BD play, it's you know, it's two together because it will be different. I've gone to firms where we've not needed a bid team at all because I didn't do any bids, you know, so it's all a handshake and a coffee. So it's much more of a marketing and BD play and other firms where, you know, it's all about the RFPs, it's all about formal bids and formal pitches and marketing is more than just let's just make it look nice, we don't need much brand stuff going on here, we've already got it. So, you know, I personally feel they're absolutely equally vital, but it's the explanation of how important each party is, at which point in the evolution of the firm, that is key to explain.

Will: Yeah, it's a good point. It sounds like education is definitely necessary for partners but we often find as well that to your point, it doesn't really matter on the size of the firm, it just matters if they've- if they're switched on to it. We sometimes find BD boards, you know, in practice in some of the firms that we work with, whereas others have never heard of it or even considered having a route in from a marketer or BD perspective to a partner.

Susanne: Yeah, one of the best firms I worked at actually have a dedicated marketing and business development partner. A partner whose job is to spear it and funnel it and you know, we take that as a piece of, you know, weight away from the head of department and also to bolster the BD and marketing people they've got in their team to give them that, you know, cultural top cover and other places, as you say, who just don't get it at all. 

Will: For any of the listeners, which obviously is what this is mainly about, thinking about setting up on, on their own, and as you say, you've already had a few people sort of come to you recently and sort of say, can I do this? What advice would you give? I'm gonna put you on the spot and ask you if possible to give us three Dos and three Don’ts for working with law firms.

Susanne: Well three Dos are definitely do your preparation, do your prep. I didn't, I wish someone had been around to tell me this so you know, just make sure that one, there is an appetite for- because we're all different. Whilst we're all marketing business development people in the sector, we all have different strengths and different abilities and our USPs definitely decide what- determine what your USP is because there are a lot of marketing and BD consultants in the legal sector and what is going to make you stand out, make sure you have a network of base, a solid you know, potential customer base that you can tap into. And if you don't have it, I always advise everyone to go and build that long before you set foot outside the door of in-house. Do it whilst you have that comfort blanket and the umbrella of the place you're working. Build that network, determine- find out who would hire you and these are your peers in the market, so you need to know who's going to give you some work when you go out on your own. You know, spend time determining, you know, what it is you're offering and how much you need to survive. If you're out on your own, if you're a single parent or if you're, you know, in a partnership that you can rely on them to financially support you, great. You've got to figure out when- how long are you going to give it? And when are you going to think you're going to, you know, start to break even, and when you're going to, and what's your scale up plan for the future? Are you- I mean, when I started out, I had whole grand vision of a huge agency, I was going to be running and I hadn't given up on that dream, it's just you sometimes realise that life and family get in the way and that maybe you need to park that for a bit later is what can you manage and what support network have you got available to you. So those are the things I do I would say. Don't worry too much about you know, there's always imposter syndrome, there's always failure. Don't fear failure because you can get it wrong a couple of times before you get it right. No reason not to do it, just get out there and give it a go and you know, as long as you've got a plan, I would also say, don't ever go into a piece of work without a really strong and solid contract. Make sure your contract protects you as much as it protects your client because often people don't like- it's quite expensive to invest in getting a really good contract drawn up. So people as consultants will take on board the contract that the client is giving them and if the client is a law firm, they will have drawn it up very much in their favour and it- you know, it's all fine when you kick off and everyone's happy, but if anything were to change during the course of the project, that is, you know, the thing you need to rely on most to protect you. So make sure, you know, don't skimp on the important things. Invest in decent contract, decent support for-,you know, in terms of your tools that you're going to use, whether you're going to use a small CRM tool for yourself, whether you're going to use, you know, invest in things like Zero, or Quick Books, or whatever it is that you want to make your life quicker and easier for billing. And there's a- I can't remember what it's called, but Simon Marshall always goes on about it, which is this pitch tool which is amazing and writes it all for you and looks fabulous. But, you know, look at- I don't want- don't skimp on things that are going to make your life easier because it will pay you- be benefiting you in the long run. That is what I would say.

Will: Yeah, it's a good point on the contract side as well and especially to cover yourself during unforeseen pandemics, for instance, when it's you know, it is a bit hairy when you're a sole trader. I know you've given loads of brilliant bits of insight there Susie so thank you for that. We're gonna start with a nice quick fire round, so I'm gonna start with asking you what is your favourite book and why?

Susanne: Well, that's a real tough question because I love books. I love reading and I have many, I actually had to cull them recently. So to distil it down, I'd say my favourite at the moment, what I'm reading, is actually a poetry anthology called Talking To The Wild by Becky Hemsley, which she writes fabulous poetry about- with a very strong sort of female theme to them. As a book book, it's probably a bit of an oldie now, but Eleanor Oliphant Is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman is a very good book.

Will: Good recommendations there. On the song front, what are you listening to at the moment or in terms of podcasting, what are you listening to on that side as well?

Susanne: I'm driving my children mad with the fact that I’ve lately become quite a huge Miley Cyrus fan. So I loaded - my recent download - was Used To Be Young, because it's a song that resonates very strongly with me, all about being used to be wild. But now, I Used To Be Young and, it's a slightly different lifestyle that you live now when you're older and you've got children, so that's the song that is on our Kitchen Disco soundtrack at the moment. And I'm not a massive podcaster, although I've been watching a number of TED talks lately, mainly on, you know, workplace cultures and that's probably the most thing I've been watching. 

Will: Good stuff. Miley Cyrus got a nice sort of heart back to the eighties with her vocals. I always find my kids are, yeah, loving her as well. What is one thing you couldn't live without in your working life?

Susanne: My phone definitely, and it's many many apps, but predominantly LinkedIn is where I live and I couldn't live without. It's my people live on LinkedIn I would say, yeah, for a multitude of reasons. A couple of years ago, I did a charitable walk and it was interesting to me that through all the social media platforms that I'm on, it was my LinkedIn community that were the most supportive of things like that. So yes, it's- that's the one thing I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I didn't have LinkedIn. 

Will: Great answer. Are there any habits that you think have helped you in your career so far or what are the main ones?

Susanne: I think to me it's very much that I am a- I'm a social being. I enjoy socialising, I enjoy networking, I enjoy meeting new people and having new experiences and that social aspect of my career when I was in house when I was younger, and then later on as a consultant has really helped hugely because your network is your greatest strength and I would say it's the generosity in that network as well as you know, I always say it's good karma, I hope you can pay it forward if you can do someone a favour in your network,

it will always come back tenfold to you later. So yeah, network and getting out there and meeting people is definitely the number one for me. 

Will: Great stuff, so you got LinkedIn on the social side online and then you - and you do it personally as well. What's your favourite place to visit and why?

Susanne: For me, I guess it will always be the Cotswolds, which is, whilst I was born in the North, I moved down to the Cotswolds when I was about five and it is my home- Gloucestershire in particular around sort of the lakes. I always- when I want to relax or unwind, is to go and see family and friends in the Cotswolds, that's my go-to place. 

Will: Beautiful part of the world, great stuff, thanks. Thanks for your answers on that Susie. So if you had one key bit of advice for anyone looking, you know, to go on their own and become a marketing and BD consultant, or set up an agency with those lofty views, what would you say to them?

Susanne: I would say look to your network and really see who you need to know and who you need to build strong relationships with, you know, my relationships with people like yourselves at Passle, with, you know, many other contemporary suppliers which, when you're in house, you know, the power dynamic is different and when you're out on your own, you will find it can be quite lonely. You will no longer get invited to any of the events that go on because you're not in-house anymore. Therefore, you are no longer their target market. So you need to build those relationships on a personal level if you want to keep that network and that potential pipeline alive. So very much focus on your peers, your other agencies similar to yourself selling different products, selling different things, but in the same space because keeping alive to what's going on in the market and being able to really- focus in on that, you know, network. And it is that, you know, I go out and pitch under other people's banners, they come under mine, it depends on what the project is. So it's, you know, if you want to go fast, try and go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. So try and gather a gang around yourself of trusted allies.

Will: Super bit of advice, you heard it here first: networking, networking, more networking and get a creative accountant, I'm sure it always helps. Susie, thank you so much for your time, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on.

Susanne: Thank you very much indeed, it's been great.

Outro: This episode of the CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle, the content marketing platform for professional services firms. Passle puts the power to create genuinely authentic and helpful content in the hands of your professionals and it allows your brand and marketing team to effectively manage, distribute, and see the impact of your content. To start showing the market the true knowledge that your firm holds, visit home.passle.net/demo to get a free online demo of the platform.