To celebrate Women’s History Month and International Women’s Day 2024, we invite you to join us as we talk with marketing and business development leaders from the world’s best law and professional service firms. 

This special episode of CMO Series REPRESENTS shines a light on leaders as they share their personal stories, best practices, and the people who have influenced their career journeys and inspired inclusion in their firms.

Join us for part one of this special series, as we uncover the transformational power of recognition and role modeling in fostering a culture of diversity and inclusion.

First up, we speak with Deborah Fleming, Marketing and Business Development Director at Walker Morris, Alison Reynolds, Digital Marketing Director at Vinson & Elkins, Julie McConnell, Associate Director of Business Development for Global Industry Groups at White & Case, Liz Gooch, Chief Business Development & Marketing Officer at McDermott Will & Emery, Vicky Hanks, Head of Marketing at Blake Morgan, Lisa Azzuolo, Chief Marketing Officer at Bennett Jones, Evette Pottinger, Head of Marketing at AA Thornton, Sheenika Gandhi, Chief Marketing Officer at Greenberg Glusker, Gemma Vaites, Director of Business Development and Marketing at Capsticks, Karen Snell, Chief Business Development & Marketing Officer at Kennedys, Naomi Butson, Corporate Communications Manager at Marks & Clerk, Vicky Elliott, Group Head of BD &  Marketing at Memery Crystal and Rosenblatt Law Firms, Deborah Farone, CEO of Farone Advisors, Jean-Marie Campbell, Head of Client Development at Baker McKenzie, Cynthia Howard, Chief Marketing Officer at Greenspoon Marder and Lora Wegman, Marketing Director at Thompson Coburn.

Transcription:

Charlie: Welcome to this very special edition of the CMO Series REPRESENTS podcast, a platform for diversity, equity, and inclusion in professional services marketing. To celebrate International Women's Day 2024, we caught up with women across the industry to hear their insights on what it takes to inspire inclusion in today's firms and uncover the inspirational people who have helped shape their careers and their lives. In this first installment, we hear how promoting recognition and a culture of role modeling, can help inspire a culture of diversity and inclusion.

Deborah: My name is Deborah Fleming. I'm the Marketing and Business Development Director at Walker Morris. It's a bit of a cliché, but I think if you can see it, you can be it. I think it's a bit of a vicious circle that you need to be able to see people like you, around you, to feel like you can be yourself. I would also say as well, I'm just adding to that if you wanted a more practical answer. I do think there is something that firms can do around rewarding, not just rewarding input. I think while firms record hours and while it is the number of hours you work that's rewarded, it's always going to favor those people who can come into the office and work long hours. I'm actually gonna tell a personal story here rather than someone who inspired inclusion overall. I had a couple of, my first two jobs, were full of women who wore shoulder pads and had helmety hair and drove Porsches and I very much felt like I wasn't the sort of person who should be in an office. And then I went to Eversheds and I was interviewed and managed by a lady who was a real person. I remember meeting her for the first time and her saying to me “It's okay love, you know, you're all right to be nervous.” And from then on I realized that I was okay to be me, and be in an office and I didn't have to be like these fierce Amazonian women that I'd worked with until then.

Alison: I'm Alison Reynolds. I'm the Director of Digital Marketing at Vinson & Elkins. In my experience in professional services marketing, I think that firms can inspire inclusion and drive equality by trusting individuals as the subject-matter experts that they are, especially being on the administrative side. It always helps to have the support of our lawyers in knowing that I am a subject-matter expert in what I do on the digital marketing side, and I can bring knowledge and that intel and that experience to help them in their business development. When I think about my career experience and who has inspired me to be inclusive, I think about my current team. I'd like to give a shout-out to Rob Elson, Kelly Moran and Avery Broughton. These are people who I directly manage, and they remind me daily that good ideas can and should come from anywhere. I don't have to be inspired necessarily by those who have come before me, and my team challenges me to think about situations differently, how to approach them in a different way than may feel comfortable to me, or that I may approach just by default. And they're a reminder that to always include multiple perspectives and that everyone, you know, can contribute to their insight, you know, to the project, to the task, to the strategy, and that makes it all the more better.

Julie: I'm Julie McConnell and I'm an Associate Director of Business Development for Global Industry Groups at White & Case. So to me, inclusion is really central to fueling creativity and inspiring innovation. It's really important to create an environment that celebrates diverse voices and perspectives. I'm really fortunate to work in a very inclusive firm and particularly inclusive global BD and marketing team where I feel that really everyone is encouraged to bring their own unique viewpoints and ideas to the table. Having a really diverse workforce at 100% champions inclusion just gives everyone a real equal opportunity to shine and bring their best selves to work, which I feel we really had the chance to do. I feel that an inclusive firm can of course better relate to clients' varied backgrounds as well. So that in turn helps to build stronger trust-based relationships where we're really well-positioned to deliver top-tier advice to our clients. I feel that a culture of inclusion extends beyond the office walls and into our homes as well, where we all have our own diverse setups. In my own experience as a full-time working mom of three little girls, I spent a period of time as a single parent during COVID that often included running video calls with a baby on my knee, a toddler in fancy dress beside me, which I'm sure many other others will resonate with. Role modeling for Children is key. So they can see examples being set and played out policies and practices should consider diverse life circumstances. And that gives you the chance to balance your professional responsibilities with your family life. Children learn to appreciate diversity. So for my girls, they can see, I work in a place that helps me to thrive at champions, inclusion, supports life balance. And they can understand that everyone deserves an equal chance, no matter their circumstances or backgrounds, I feel that's really powerful. So, if I was to pick one thing firms can do to inspire inclusion, I would say emphasize the importance of role modeling and couple that with employee advocacy. Stories are one of the most powerful tools we have. And the more that firms can do to encourage employees from diverse backgrounds to contribute their perspectives and ideas and voice their own experiences, the more that others will feel empowered to do the same. I'm really fortunate to have encountered a lot of inspirational people in my career. So far, those who have championed inclusion, each of them have had a really big impact on my professional development. I know that many more will cross my future path as well. To me, it's important to keep a strong network and recognize the importance of drawing inspiration from a variety of individuals to become a really strong and rounded leader. Never stop listening and learning from others. Everyone has unique personalities, perspectives and backgrounds. However, if I was to name one person who really has inspired inclusion, it would be Jackie McLennan. She's a retired partner from our Brussels office, Jackie's leadership characterized by strength, authentic authenticity and kindness has been instrumental in my growth. She always believed in me and always really pushed me to reach for the stars. Her approach really emphasized empathy and to me, this is the most vital trait for anyone in business development and marketing. It fosters a culture of respect and understanding. Jackie's influence has been a guiding force of my journey and it underscores the importance of learning from a diversity of individuals to become a really well-rounded leader.

Liz: I am Liz Gooch, the Chief Business Development and Marketing Officer for McDermott Will & Emery. I think one of the most important things firms can do to inspire inclusion and drive quality is to allow the stories of their employees to be told. When we create stories, when we talk about our stories and our history, we create empathy and a perspective that allows those around us to see ourselves and see others in a different light. So if there are any opportunities to do that, whether that is an internal newsletter, whether that is on webinars externally or internally, but allowing different voices in an organization to share their experience and share their perspective, provides clarity and an acknowledgment of all of our perspectives and allows us to approach the work that we do with each other more effectively. So I will actually mention two people in my career. I have both an undergraduate and a graduate degree in Science and those degrees are in areas where there were not a lot of women in the subjects, or around me when I was going through school. And I think both of these women, Professor Gray and Professor Crespi, showed that they had perspective, that they could succeed in that environment, and that they were always willing to provide perspective and to provide a helping hand as I was developing in my career. I think sometimes being the only woman in a room, or being in a male-dominated industry, can be intimidating to make sure that your voice is heard. But, having two stellar women who were really succeeding, and were really on top of their career very early on, gave me the perspective that I was always included and that I should be included and that my voice could be heard. And I think taking that and running with that for the rest of my career really allowed me to walk into any room with the confidence that I deserve to be there. And so I think that that is something that I strive to do with everyone that I work with, and making sure that I am taking on and understanding the perspective of those around me and creating connection of people that come from different experiences and we can use those experiences to work more successfully together and achieve our goals.

Charlie: Building an inclusive environment means establishing a culture where everyone has the opportunity to thrive, regardless of their background. This next group of guests share their experiences and the importance of being able to bring your authentic self to work and why that's so central to inspiring inclusion.

Vicky: I'm Vicky Hanks. I look after marketing for Blake Morgan. I think wherever possible, it's important to normalize people shaping their day or their week to allow them to balance their other commitments with work. So, for example, taking an extra break in the afternoon to do the school run and, you know, flexing their working hours around that. I'm lucky enough that, where I work, we try and be flexible wherever we can, but I think it can be a real enabler to make it possible for people to balance those commitments, and still work and have fulfilling careers. Jessica Chivers and the team from the talent keeper specialists are doing some great work in enabling employers to better support employees returning from extended leave. I was actually lucky enough to take part in a career comeback workshop that Jessica held many years ago and I found it a really inspiring and uplifting session. I guess I feel that there are so many talented people out there who would like to return to the workplace, but don't really know how to find a route back in that supporting returners is really key to inclusion.

Lisa: Hi, my name is Lisa Azzuolo, and I'm the CMO at Canadian law firm, Bennett Jones. From my experience in the legal industry, one thing firms can do to build and sustain an inclusive environment is to allow people to be their authentic selves in the workplace. Nobody makes it to Bay Street without a strong foundation, given the knowledge, discipline, and determination required to even be in the running. But smart, collaborative, and creative people come in all shapes and sizes, including different backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives, and one size doesn't fit all. Thoughtful consideration has to be given to make sure we provide environments where people feel comfortable to be themselves, where you can be you, and I can be me, in order to bring out the best in people. The most influential person in my career with respect to inspiring an inclusive mindset was Patty Grimes, my boss during my first stint in legal marketing, she took me under her wing - a second-generation Canadian raised in a working-class Italian family in Montreal, who had never been exposed to the world of Bay Street, and taught me that it is possible to be hard-working and results-oriented while remaining authentic to one's core values and leading with compassion. Everyone on that team felt embraced and empowered, and that is how we should want every member of our organizations to feel.

Evette: Hi, my name is Evette Pottinger and I'm the Head of Business Development and Marketing at AA Thornton. Well, that's an interesting question because you ask about professional services marketing and my experience there, but I've sat on the management committees for a number of firms, so my experience and how I'm going to answer the question really leads more to that. And it's really about creating a genuine environment in which people are included, and it's men and women, but if you set out your values and your values include inclusivity, and you're true to that, it will funnel through in everything that you do. If you go to meetings and you make sure that everybody has a voice, everybody has a voice. If you allow people to work part-time and you respect that and work in such a way as a firm that it's encouraged and celebrated rather than, you know, perceived as a bad thing as it can be in some environments, then people will thrive and of course, women will thrive as well. You know, at my current firm, I've been at a number of firms, I've been here just a year and they do it really well. The values were reviewed just before I joined and they're really true to them in everything they do and that is spearheaded by two women. Really, one is a partner and one is the head of people, and they're really active internally and externally in terms of diversity and inclusion, but it helps that there are lots of the men in the firm are genuine allies. So they're the kind of people that will call things out that aren't quite right. So it all goes to that environment, but it's an environment for everybody, not just for women. Now again, I'm not quite answering the question that's asked because it's not, for me, it's not one person, it's two, and these are two female partners. And they were both at a firm working together, both mothers of three, and they hit the glass ceiling. Now they were career women, real career women and they didn't want to work part-time, but they needed flexibility and they weren't getting that. So they left and they set up their own firm and I worked with them for a number of years. And it's Allard Bailey Family Law and what they did at that firm was create a genuine environment in which everybody can thrive and you could not quite, but almost work how you wanted. So this was pre-Covid and everybody was able to work remotely or be in the office. You had a desk in the office if you wanted to be there, but you could pretty much keep your own hours. So, you know, at my current firm, we have things like flexi-time and agile working and that's brilliant. But I think that Allard Bailey were really ahead of their time, but they created an environment in which they could succeed themselves. So for me, it’s two women. It's the partnership of Sabrina Bailey and Louise Allard.

Sheenika: My name is Sheenika Gandhi. I'm the Chief Marketing Officer at Greenberg Glusker. I think firm leader leadership should always have an open door and listen to the experiences of others and individual experiences specifically. I think active listening and empathizing truly just makes everyone feel heard and connected. I know that whenever I walk into my managing partner's office, for example, that he definitely lives by that. And I like that feeling like my voice is part of the mix and that I'm being heard out. And so I think when you actively listen, you can start to then even identify opportunities to make change, and that's really what - when you're working on inclusion and driving quality in a firm, you know, as you're hearing people out, then maybe there are opportunities to make a change. And I love when, you know, companies have like a resource group, or round tables, or open forums and on specific topics. And I think that type of work really gives individuals a chance to share their personal experiences. This one was- I had to think about it, and the person who popped into my mind immediately was someone who actually works at our firm currently. She's an employee engagement coordinator. Her name is Nicole Kosoff, and she's done an amazing job inspiring inclusion throughout the firm. She's been here at the firm for, I think about over five years, and basically the firm, with her support, invests in activities to make our employees feel really valued and it provides people with the opportunity to form close bonds across all levels. So not just attorneys or not just staff, but you know, that point being inclusion, we- a lot of these activities are for both attorneys and staff. And so we celebrate birthdays, anniversaries, baby showers, we host new coffee- like new hire coffee chats, we you know, celebrate heritage months. And specifically, I, you know, I wanted to celebrate Diwali at the firm, which is a cultural holiday, that's part of my upbringing. And I was supported, with Nicole at my side, with the ability to host something. I would say her dedication to inclusion really serves as a model for all of us and highlights the importance of empathy and action and in creating that welcoming environment.

Gemma: So I'm Gemma Vaites. I'm Director of BD and Marketing at Capsticks. Yeah, so this is something I'm really passionate about and I think probably have a story to tell from my own experience. I think people often think they have to choose between being ambitious and having a family which is really sad because you see a lot of women perhaps pause their career or think I can't take more on, but actually, the opportunities don't normally come along when the timing is perfect. So I think it's really about providing that flexibility and support around women so that they can manage the juggle and they can still be ambitious and they can achieve their work goals and their family goals. So I think the flexibility is really key and I think it's got to be driven by leadership, I think you've got to have role models, I think you've got to  be living and breathing what you say, I think the business has got to be set up that way, but I think people have got to feel it as well. So I think flexibility is absolutely key. We do something at Capsticks, it's called Flexibility by Default. And it's not just for people with kids, it's for people with caring responsibilities, it's for people that want to go and do a yoga class in the morning or go for a surf before work. And actually, our core hours mean that you can flex around the kind of 10- 4:30 so that if you want to start at 10 and finish later, you can etc, and that flexibility is about giving people the opportunity to really be ambitious, but also bring their whole self to work. So not hide the fact, they've got kids at home who have got school plays, sports days, that get sick, and actually, they're just really supported to achieve their full potential. So one person in my career who has really successfully inspired inclusion, and again, personally with me and with others, is Rachel Heenan, our senior partner. Certainly for me, the opportunity for me to progress came up when I had a two-year-old daughter, Holly. I was desperate to have another child as well. We'd sadly had some miscarriages and I was still really keen to build that family unit, but I was really ambitious, I had the full backing and confidence that whether I was juggling a two-year-old or whether I was looking to build my family, It wasn't gonna hold me back and actually, I think that support in my situation really spurred me on to be a role model and support others.

Karen: Hi, I'm Karen Snell, Chief Business Development and Marketing Officer at Kennedys.  I think it's really about leadership, you know, leading from the front and setting a good example. I think one of the things I've seen work really well for Kennedys is the adoption in the UK of the apprenticeship scheme. So that's seen us as a business development function, hiring people from non-traditional backgrounds, those people that haven't been to university and giving them the opportunity to work for a big global organization and get experience and access to careers that they would not ordinarily be able to access. When you asked me this question, I think the person that immediately sprung to mind is Sharon Lewis who is a partner at Hogan Lovells who leads the financial institutions and insurance sectors. And Sharon has really focused her career on that particular sector where diversity and inclusion is really high on the agenda of all of the banks and insurers and she has spearheaded a number of initiatives at the firm. So as an example, our leadership, encouraging the firm to both sponsor and partner with organizations that really make a difference in driving the diversity and inclusion agenda. And I think the interesting thing about Sharon's approach is not only has it really made a difference, but it's also been an effective tool in terms of her own business and client development activity.

Naomi: I'm Naomi Butson and I'm the Corporate Communications Manager for one of the world's leading intellectual property firms, Marks and Clerk. I think arguably, whether it's in professional services or in any industry, there's a few things that any organization can do to inspire inclusion and to drive equality. I think for me, the first one is probably to be brave. The prospect of inspiring and affecting change can be a really daunting one and I think it's really difficult for any organization to know where to start when it comes to ED&I, but any progress is a step in the right direction and will probably be appreciated by colleagues. I, you know, in a previous role that I had, the decisions that I was making had some really high-profile consequences and I was often terrified about doing the wrong thing and making sure I was making the right call. And I had a really inspirational, very brilliant boss who explained that any decision I was making, if I was doing it having assessed all the information given to me and for what I believed to be the right reasons, that there's a pretty good chance it's going to be the right decision for everyone in the end. And even if it doesn't work out as planned, then my rationale would still stand, and I think that is a really valuable lesson that could be applied to ED&I, not just in professional services, but in any industry, I think it's also important to say that any public-facing activity, that any business puts out there, needs to be rooted in private support. I think it's really easy to go out there and make all the claims in the world, but actually partners in an organization and employees are gonna really lose faith in anything that you're trying to achieve if it's not backed by real action and real commitment that often needs to set behind the scenes. Any efforts around this have to be collaborative. I think it's impossible to say that you're going to achieve inclusivity without being inclusive, so it's super super important to create a forum and a safe space that fosters collaboration in order for anything around ED&I to succeed successfully. I've been very very lucky to have been surrounded by successful positive women that have fostered a real kind of atmosphere and an attitude towards inclusivity. But one of the absolute most impressive women that stand out is a former boss of mine and great friend called Dominique Backhouse based in Hong Kong. And she runs a communications agency called Companion Communications. And when I relocated from Hong Kong back to the UK, I freelanced for Dominique for a number of clients. But she has a really interesting business model and one that I'm surprised isn't rolled out everywhere, and she only employs senior communications consultants. So that means you've got clients that have only got people at the top of their game working for them, and you've got communications consultants that are challenged and able to deliver and have a very supportive network around them all the time. She's just been sort of listed as a campaign magazine, 40 under 40. And not only because she's developed a successful business model, but she's as passionate about servicing clients as she is about finding ways to empower women returning to the workforce. She's a huge believer in flexibility and supportive work environments and really rejects the industry norm that often comes with communications around working long hours and lives by a ‘free-range PRs are better than computer-bound ones’ philosophy, and it works. And on a personal level, as well as a professional level, she is a huge champion of women across the board. It's very very impressive to watch.

Vicky: Hi I’m Vicky Elliott, I'm Group Head of BD & Marketing for Memery Crystal and Rosenblatt Law Firms. I think the one thing is that we need to see it from the top. So visual representation within the boardrooms, within senior management, within the C- suite. And that's the bit that we've still got a long way to go on. Well, I think I've got more than one to be fair. Lauren Radford who was a coworker of mine in my previous job, who now heads up the membership for Level 20 which is a nonprofit that basically is trying to get more 20% of women into the boardroom in the private equity space. Working closely with Lauren in my previous role, she drove a lot of the women's initiatives in our company, which really helped inspire a lot of the junior women and set up kind of mentoring and stuff. So that was real hands on, kind of inspirational work that she was doing. Leslie Gregory, who is a partner in the Memery Crystal Law firm, has set up our Women in Business initiative and since I've joined the company, we've had a couple of events and I was very honored to kind of actually get to sit in on the annual Women's in Business Dinner in December, just surrounded by inspiring women who are all founders, investors, who are just really supporting other women. And it's just a great initiative to get involved in. And then outside of kind of the working financial world, I was very lucky in my previous role to - as a company - sponsor the Harlequin women's rugby team. And I got to meet a lot of the players there. Rachel Burford, who's the captain, and Shauna Brown, just to name a couple who are real inspirational leaders of that sport. And they are not just ambassadors for the sport, but they go over and above in terms of inspiring the next generation and working with young girls in camps and stuff like that. So it's really amazing to see how that sport has just kind of grown over the last few years with those kinds of women taking the lead.

Deborah: I am Deborah Farone, I'm the CEO and marketing strategist at my own consulting firm which is called Farone Advisors. It's essential that in order to really drive inclusion and create a sense of equality and equity amongst all the employees of the law firm, that the leaders be incredibly involved and believe in the effort because, without top-down emphasis on the importance of this, it's very hard to accomplish much.  When I think about inclusion and who's inspired me, I'm inspired by a number of the organizations out there that are insisting that their panels be inclusive and that there be people of all different colors, all different backgrounds, from various geographies whenever possible. And the ones that come to mind are the International Bar Association, which will actually turn back a panel to someone who is creating it and say we need more diversity. And the other organization is PLI the Practicing Law Institute and in particular Sharon Crane, who's their president, is doing a fantastic job of this and so did Anita Shapiro, her predecessor. And I think because of that, their programming is better, they're providing more diverse thought and they're really making sure that the people who are creating programming for them are reaching out to folks who they might not normally think of. And so that in and of itself, is also helping. 

Charlie: Creating meaningful change requires consistent training and awareness and our final cohort of guests share their insights on the role of programs and mentoring in creating an inclusive workplace.

Jean-Marie: Hello, I'm Jean-Marie Campbell. I'm head of Client Development for North America, the North America CMO at Baker McKenzie. I think firms should be offering more programs that provide opportunities for those who do not have easy access to jobs, roles, experiences, that will help drive equality. At Baker, you know, the firm supports a program that we proposed to offer diverse college students a summer internship and introduce them to not only marketing and business development roles, but all different business roles at a law firm. The firm funded this internship program with no hesitation and then selected our program for an award that we receive even more funding from the firm for expansion across different regions, so I think these kinds of programs are the things law firms should be doing I would say, since we are talking about International Women's Day, a woman comes to mind, Kate Stonestreet. She is Baker McKenzie's Global COO, and she has really been an inspiration to me as a woman leader at her level at our firm. She has also pushed me to think more broadly about what we can do both as a firm and individually to expand our programming for diversity, equity, and inclusion. And she has such an interesting personal story that shows so many of us that there's things that we can do in our every day and in our organization to promote equity, diversity, and inclusion. So, Kate Stonestreet is my number one.

Cynthia: Hi I'm Cynthia Howard. I'm the Chief Marketing Officer at Greenspoon Marder. Like marketing, I don't think there's one magic bullet here. I think the key is really consistency with practices, messaging and actions. But if I had to point to one thing in my experience, it would be training. I think firms should really conduct regular and comprehensive training sessions for all employees, and that's from the staff on up to the partners focusing on diversity, unconscious bias, inclusive behaviors and certainly gender equity. These sessions really help raise awareness about the importance of diversity and can equip the staff and partners with tools to foster an inclusive environment. So at Greenspoon Marder, we recently did a training on generational differences and while it wasn't specifically focused on women's issues, it really brought to light the ways that different generations value things in the workplace, so that could be money, time, freedom, communication or even purpose. And it was really interesting because for me I work with, now that I know this, I work with five different generations at Greenspoon Marder and people really do operate through different lenses and something that might be valuable to a Gen Xer, might not work for a baby boomer for instance. And it's really, it's really helped me kind of focus my communication, the types of programs that I'm producing, and the way that I work with people in a different way. A person who I've seen inspire inclusion in my career is a woman named Christine Brown. She was my first boss and mentor. I was a young college grad working in marketing and business development at a global accounting firm and Christine made sure that I was always included in the meetings. I had a voice at the table, she took me to the business lunches that she certainly didn't have to, and so much more. She was really an expert in business development and what I think is so inspiring is I watched her build teams for pitches and pursuits and she always ensured that it was balanced. She made sure that there were females at the table that there was diversity represented, and this was 20 something years ago. And she also had a really strong women's network. It taught me early the importance of building my own tribe, not just of friends, but of peers who you can really ask questions to gain inspiration from and grow with. She was a mother and ironically she had twins and later in life I had twins. And she really taught me the importance of balance and for asking for what you need from your firm, but also of still being available.

Lora: My name is Lora Wegman. I'm the Marketing and Communications Director at Thompson Coburn. I think from my experience in professional services marketing, there's so many things that firms can do and not just one thing to inspire inclusion and equality in the workplace and in the way that you represent yourself on a daily basis. I think the key is just showing that you mean what you say on a daily basis that it's not just words. If you're team internally, as well as your clients in the external world see that you're living out that value, then they'll tell other people about it and to me, the benefit is, when that happens, then you'll get more diverse job candidates, you'll get clients who are looking at you as someone who understands that value and the importance of equality and inclusion. So then more opportunities are going to come your way, I think what that looks like every day is just providing leadership opportunities, mentoring, and a sense of community in a way that makes people feel heard and valued. One person who has successfully inspired inclusion that I've seen in my career is a former colleague of mine. Her name is Molly Farrell. When I worked with her, her role was in attorney professional development within a law firm, but she's now a trainer and a coach for lawyers and law firm professionals in her own company as a consultant. And the reason she inspires me in this area, she's just so passionate about inclusion and making the workplace better for people at every level of the organization and especially she was a huge advocate for women, for working parents, and also just for diverse colleagues in general in terms of pushing for new programs, policy changes, just ways to make the firm a better place for people to work and to do business. And one thing that I always think about with Molly is during the pandemic, especially, she was really vocal about the importance of well-being in the legal profession and I think speaking out about that kind of helps normalize those conversations in a way that maybe wasn't as prevalent in the past.

Charlie: Thank you to all of our guests for joining this special episode of CMO Series REPRESENTS and look out for part two. Thanks for listening.