Training and developing the next generation of lawyers is a key driver for a firm’s long-term success.

Investing in new talent is often overlooked, but today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Sheenika Gandhi, Chief Marketing Officer at Greenberg Glusker, to understand how she is reimagining business development training, for the future success of their associates and the firm.

Sheenika and Ali discuss: 

• Sheenika’s career journey and how she came to be a Chief Marketing Officer
• How she became aware of the need for BD training 
• The training culture at Greenberg Glusker including specific training programs and their focus areas 
• What success looks like and any examples
• A look into the future of training at Greenberg Glusker 
• Advice for other CMOs looking to reimagine their training programs 

Transcription: 

Ali: Welcome to the Passle CMO series where we discuss all things marketing and business development in the world of professional services. Today's topic is reimagining associate training for BD success. It won't come as a surprise that training and developing the next generation of lawyers is a key driver for a firm's long-term success. Investing in new talent is often overlooked, but luckily I have the pleasure of sitting down with a wonderful Sheenika Gandhi, Chief Marketing Officer at Greenberg Glusker, to understand how she's reimagining business development training for the future success of their associates and the firm. Welcome Sheenika!

Sheenika: Hi, so excited to be here!

Ali: Absolutely thrilled to have you. I know that you've been very kind in saying that you're a big fan of the podcast, so thrilled that you're coming on. And it sounds like you've been unbelievably busy at the start of this year, so I'm thankful that you've managed to make the time.

Sheenika: Absolutely, this is a favourite podcast of mine, so it's an honour to be here.

Ali: Oh, that's very, very sweet. Yes, I really appreciate it. And excitingly as we were talking about beforehand, it's your 65th anniversary at Greenberg Glusker this year, so a nice thing to be doing I'm sure.

Sheenika: Yeah, there's a lot to think about, various aspects of whether it's a party or a logo, you know, just trying to put all those pieces together and celebrate such an amazing milestone in our firm's history.

Ali: Oh 100% very very exciting. And in terms of milestones, it'd be great to actually understand a little bit about your journey to Greenberg Glusker, so I guess it's a really nice place to start with, if you could please give us a bit of background around that, I'd really appreciate it.

Sheenika: Yeah, of course. So I suppose the story starts when I was in law school and I wasn't sure practising law was the right path for me. I still, of course, you know, decided to do it all those three years. I didn't give up and that's not in my personality. So, after graduation and waiting for bar results to release, I found a role where I- it was a website coordinator at a 300 attorney, intellectual property law firm. And when I read the job description, I was extremely excited to see it was a mix of my interest in tech, business and legal. And what was great is during the first year, I could tell that there was a path for me to possibly be CMO one day though. Well, when we get to the end of this story, I thought that was going to be a lot longer, a lot longer path than it actually was, and I started to really invest in my career and my role. I joined the Legal Marketing Association and I learned everything there was to know about digital marketing within law firms and within five years, I was a digital marketing specialist at that firm. I was managing the website, social media, blogs, email marketing, and this was during a time now, it's been, I think 10 years where that really was, we were just starting to do that in law firms and doing it well. And so I was glad to be at the forefront of that and of course, I was doing other things too because I have a habit of not staying in my own lane. So that personality trait helped me land my next role as a director of marketing at a 50 attorney employment and business litigation boutique. So there I really focused on creating, you know, streamline processes, content marketing, building a culture of business development. I really built up the foundation for running a department on my own and that came- it came right in time for when I was recruited to Greenberg Glusker, which is where I currently am. It's 100 attorney full service firm in Los Angeles. I was hired as a director of marketing to get the trains running on time, engaging with the attorneys to get them excited about marketing again, and at the time I was promoted to CMO last year, I had accomplished these goals and much more, we had strong talent. We were pushing ourselves to accomplish goals in all nine of our practice groups, so that was, you know, a really big accomplishment there, and we had invested in the right technology, the right business partners, you know, the business partners were an extension of our team. So now that I'm in this elevated role as CMO which by the way, I'm 12 years into my career, and in legal marketing. And I think, you know, when I look at some of the job descriptions, that typically doesn't happen. I was able to get into a direct role within five years and I think that to me, you know, I just, I'm proud of myself and I- that has been a really big pivotal part of my journey. And this year, I'm focused on cross-selling, utilizing technology for business development and just managing our resources effectively so that, you know, that's sort of what the future looks like right now in my role. 

Ali: There are so many tangents I want to pick up on there and I feel like I could take us off in multiple different directions. I guess the first thing to say is, you know, a massive congratulations on that promotion to CMO, you know, to become part of the C Suite is incredible. And as you touched on, you’re only 12 years into your career, which is phenomenal, I mean, you must have been very, very proud of yourself at that moment, I know just how well regarded you are in the industry. So, as I say, for me, a massive congratulations on that. Am I right in saying that your- that director of marketing role at the small boutique firm came after only sort of 5 to 6 years.

Sheenika: Yeah, that's right.

Ali: Blimey, that, I mean, that is, that's a very quick trajectory really to get into that role, let alone to where you are now as the CMO.

Sheenika: Yeah, it went from a specialist to a director role and it was, it was really- I honestly had a little bit of imposter syndrome because I really felt that maybe I wasn't ready. I- but I definitely went into the interview extremely prepared and I, you know, presented some thoughts about what I really could do for their firm and I think that might have been a sort of the selling point for me and I really went in there with- I always have this learning mindset and so I honestly use Legal Marketing Association, all their resources. I know I sound like a groupie when it comes to LMA, but I really am because they have just really, I mean, honestly, I got my two- my last two roles through networking through LMA. So it really does, you know, if you- to invest in your career in an association that supports you has really elevated me to where I am today.

Ali: Yeah, and I know from a lot of the previous conversations you and I have had, just how much you find that association worthwhile. And as I said, throughout that association and wider a field, I know that you're incredibly well regarded. So yeah, huge hats off to you. I'd say, whilst I could take this off in many different tangents, what would be really interesting to understand, if we're going to start to narrow this in around that whole idea of reimagining the sort of business development training within the firm, and at what point on that journey that you were going on that we've just discussed, did you realise how critical business development training was for associates and trainees?

Sheenika: Yeah, that's a great question! So funny enough, when I was in law school, there were no courses on marketing, business development, client service. And so I started to realise that if an attorney wanted to have some sort of self determination about their career path and they not only needed to learn to be an excellent lawyer, with that's always number one priority, but they had to also develop these foundational skills in client service, you know, marketing of your personal brand and having that business development skills of that one to one relationship. And so I started to see that more and more as I kept going along my career. And even though I had that general sentiment for several years, it really hit home a few years into my role here at Greenberg Glusker because I would hear stories from senior associates looking to make partner, or junior partners looking to build their book, and the stories were centred around how they had a minimal network or they hadn't built a niche for themselves. And so they felt stuck almost, they didn't know what the path forward was. I would also hear from lateral associates who came from Big Law that they were so focused and busy on billables and of course, you know, they had higher billable requirements so they didn't have the time to do marketing, but on the flip side, they also weren't encouraged to do marketing because the I think Big Law, whether this is right or wrong, I don't have an opinion on that. they really have focus on their partners and those who have shown rainmaking capabilities, and they invest in them, right, as opposed to maybe an associate who is, you know, is still working on meeting billable requirements. So these anecdotes made me realise that it was just really critical for me to build out a program here for the firm, because in our firm, we are a lot more entrepreneurial from your first year associate, all the way to your senior partner. That entrepreneurship is part of the culture of the firm. And we even give a percentage of origination credits to associates to help you, you know, sort of even solidify that sentiment that we do support you if you do wish to do that type of, you know, entrepreneurial, had that entrepreneurial mindset.

Ali: I think that’s amazing in terms of the associates getting some form of origination credits because as you alluded to, be it a small firm or one of the big firms, that whole idea of business development just isn't focused on at all, and there's no training and people don't necessarily understand the value of it as you said. There's so many stories and equally, I've heard many a story about people hitting partner and they're going well ‘I basically spent my head in the books for the past however many years and now you're expecting me to go out and do business? What even is that about?’ So, I mean it must be really interesting when those associates kind of come over and you're like, well, opening up kind of under the hood and going, well, you've got all of this available to you.

Sheenika: Yeah, exactly. We've gotten a lot of comments about how they are so impressed about the support and training that they receive and not- of course not everyone comes to all the training programs and not always are engaging, but I think when they are ready to engage we're around and we're there to support. 

Ali: Well, it's not just that, isn't it. It is the sort of program and we'll come into this, the programs and the likes, it's about the other forms of tools that people can use and I've got actually- a friend of mine's an associate at a UK law firm and he was saying the amount of opportunities through some of the tools that he uses in terms of that you were talking about earlier, sort of the branding and the personal development that's opened up doors for him in terms of speaking and podcasts and all these sorts of things. And everyone's like, oh, how's that come around? It's cos he's invested into doing that business development. It's amazing for those younger folk.

Sheenika: Yeah, no, that's a great story. 

Ali: I know it's really cool to see. So if we're delving into this, then it'd be interesting to hear about your approach to that training culture that you have at Greenberg Glusker and just kind of getting, as I said before, like getting under the hood of it a bit. If you could tell us a bit more, please.

Sheenika: Yeah, happy to talk about our program. So thankfully, you know, I was at a firm or I came into Greenberg Glusker with- there was already a history of providing marketing and business development training for our attorneys. So I wasn't new to the mix about that, but my approach really focused on creating a curriculum that focused on associates and I actually split the associates up in two groups. So it was sort of our junior associates years, one through five, and then a more senior associate group in their sixth year above. And the reason I did that split is because they just have completely different needs, the types of skills to train were going to be different and so I didn't want to lump all of the associates together and I was trying to be more personalised and more reflective of what they truly needed. So for the junior group, I facilitated monthly meetings and we covered just very in- I guess in my world, basic foundational principles and that would include, you know, just having a mindset and being, you know, having the willingness to actually do business development. I think a lot of it comes from the want to do it and the motivation to do it. We talked about networking, we talked about utilising LinkedIn. The- what's interesting is actually the first half meeting, I invited a senior rainmaker at the firm to discuss how they built their book, so it was a chance for the associates to interact with various partners across the firm, across practice groups. It showed them that there were different ways to go about developing business because it's not all the same way everyone has come to their book in so many avenues and so I wanted them to see that too. I- what's great is I also got feedback and this was the great thing about our associates, they always came back to my desk and or my office and said, you know, what about this? And so the feedback was great and they wanted the same perspective from younger partners at the firm. So I started to bring in, you know, some of the newer partners, who had just made partners talk about you know, how they built their book and how they eventually made partner. And so having that different, those different voices, I think really helped to the shape how they really felt and thought about marketing and business development. I did supplement those sessions with videos from David Ackert’s Pipeline Plus tool to provide just another visual style of learning. I wanted to take it into account that people learn in different ways. For the senior associates, we partnered with Jonathan and Lana from Equinox Strategy Partners or BD consultants based here in Los Angeles, and they came for in person facilitated sessions. Actually, I should have mentioned that both these sessions were all in person because we were trying, I personally was trying to drive more associates back into the office so that they can get that, you know, it's very much apprentice training with lawyers and so I wanted to contribute to that at the firm and to, you know, push people to come in person. So, Jonathan and Lana would come in person for these facilitated sessions and for the senior group, we really focus more on topics such as law firm, economics, communicating with confidence, establishing credibility, how to build a referral network, best practices and pitching and those sessions, if you can, if you imagine it, they were based on real life scenarios where it was understanding how originations works, or how do I identify a mutually beneficial referral service. So Jonathan and I picked partners, a same thing, same idea of bringing in the partner voices within our own firm, we picked partners who could speak to these topics, and the style of the sessions were a round table conversation with, where Jonathan was interviewing the partner to add the partner's voice into the mix, but also giving, you know, some learning style through Jonathan as well. He was giving his experiences so having these associates be able to ask questions in that open forum really helped to get deep into some of the, what I've seen barriers or obstacles that can come in the way of when you're trying to do business development because it's not for the faint of heart. It takes a lot of work and so we want to acknowledge that and show that, you know, to keep going and to keep trying new things because you just don't know what will stick. And so that was a big part of the program. What's fun at the end of the year, I ended the program with an all associate lunch at a local restaurant and that was just a fun way to, yeah, celebrate the group's successes. We talked about activities that they were proud of and just how- what authentic marketing they were engaging in because I wanted them to realise that business development really needs to look authentic and be part of your personality, it can't be something, anything other than that, otherwise it won't work. So we just wanted to celebrate some of those stories too.

Ali: But that's so wonderful to hear and I love just the whole idea of ultimately your ethos, which is, you know, walk before you can run, and making sure that those foundations were there for the more junior associates. But actually, when you start to look at your senior associates, you know, important things like law firm economics, or referrals and maximising their network, is just so important. There's so much that you shared with us there and I think it's all really really valuable, but just out of interest, were there any sort of pivotal training programs that you could tell us a little bit more about?

Sheenika: Yeah. I- you know, part of this, I didn't talk about as part of this programy, we were also coaching. So I was coaching several of these associates and to an extent,  I was also, I've also been coaching about 30 partners at the firm.  So- and I know coaching is very different from a formal training program, but honestly, I do see these coaching sessions as like mini training sessions each month. So it was part of that program where, you know, I was able to meet with the attorney every month and I was meeting with associates, and not all of them, just those who wanted to do the extra coaching, and I would, you know, we would even share screens to teach the best way to utilise LinkedIn, or how to draft an email to some- you know, someone that they wanted to reach out to, they were going to a conference, let's say, and they wanted to review the list of attendees. And so the topics varied. It- but it was all so helpful for the associates to be able to have that one on one time away from a group setting with someone in our department and just to talk through their specifics. And so I think that was a really pivotal part of the program that I didn't mention before, but that coaching piece of it is something that's important to include when you were doing group training sessions. 

Ali: Oh, incredibly, so. And I'm sure it's one of the reasons you're so busy as an individual, but what's really nice is, I imagine with just doing the coaching, all of those foundational principles that you're talking about just filter into it. And the other thing that I didn't pick up on there, but again, it just got me thinking when you talk about the coaching there and some of the- some of the parts you mentioned, I love the fact that you were pretty insistent on people coming in and doing a lot of these training programs and being in and around each other because at the end of the day, you do learn by osmosis and being around other people and hearing those stories, like you said that by having that lunch and getting people to talk about it and just sort of, yeah, that, almost sort of yeah, learning element of being around everyone I think is absolutely wonderful in a really nice way to drive that.

Sheenika: Yeah, the best part was when they would linger at the end and after the session is done, and I would walk away but I could tell they were lingering, they were talking and regardless of whether they were talking about the session or not, I mean, that- those types of interactions, that's the thing though, that's the purpose of the- to facilitate those conversations.

Ali: Of course, of course, it's so important and particularly in the world we're all living in now, it's easy to get away from having those moments. And I say there's so much value that comes from it and when we talk about value, what for you does success look like from this? And have you got any examples that maybe you're able to share, or willing to share with us? 

Sheenika: Yeah, you know, success for the firm is hard to quantify. Sometimes I- part of it is, you know, allowing, you know, having the associates have a business mindset in addition to becoming an excellent lawyer. So because we're encouraging our associates to network and attend conferences, we're just generally having them be engaged with the community so that they can start developing relationships early. Where I'm starting to look at success as them going and actually getting up out of their office and away from their laptops to do all of these things. So, you know, business can come from so many places and so I felt that it was really important for the associates to just really focus on creating a foothold within the industries and audience that one day, I'm sure, you know, we'll refer them, refer them work and of course, doing this around their very busy workload. So, I could tell from, you know, as I was looking through the website and reminding myself of some of these successes, like several of our associates set goals last year to write an article. And that, like, it was really nice to see that eight of them did actually write an article and one or two of them actually wrote more than one article. So I think having them take what they're learning and then actually put that into practice, to me, is what is success. And we're also- because the coaching went so well last year, I actually, and now having somebody on my team, my colleague Purnima, she's spearheading the training with the associates while I focus my time on the partners. And that's been really beneficial because I could see that, you know, they're starting to take a lot of those- the topics that we learned about and they're using that in the sessions with her. So those stories of hearing a successful post on LinkedIn because our team explained some of the ways to in visibility or creating a post event strategy, you know, to follow up with the connections that they made at a particular event or conference, those are some really big successes for me and I live by those stories and anecdotes.

Ali: Oh those anecdotal examples make a huge difference. You say like talking about the articles or people putting success plans around events that they've been to, the other thing which you alluded to earlier as well was the origination credits that associates get. So again, I imagine from their perspective- in your perspective, that's really nice to see which yeah, again, is a very much more of a sort of a tangible marker in terms of what they're doing, and you started to allude to it there a little bit around what 2024 has in offer. I know that you've got a few things up your sleeve as you mentioned there, Purnima is taking on the associates, you're focusing a little bit more on the partners, what's sort of next in terms of training for you at the firm and as we go through 2024? 

Sheenika: You know, I sort of spent some time in December to think long and hard about the successes and, you know, the failures or sort of room for improvement, I won't use failures, but room for improvement for the program, and I really decided that sort of this year long every month session was quite, it's a lot of time and work. Here we're reimagining the training by dropping the number of sessions we're having. So this year we have, and we're actually moving- four of these sessions are going to be all attorney sessions because I want to get associates and partners together in one room talking about something that I think impacts everyone, which is client service. So that is the theme for this year and that means talking about everything from learning about a client's business, role-playing for key client conversations, how to convert clients to raving super fans or overcoming objections, and all of these things, which is really great, even if you don't have a client. Like let's say you're an associate, you can use these tools to treat your partners as a client, right? So that way you're starting to develop your- you can use some of those skills internally, even if you don't have your own clients. But at our firm, a lot of our associates, and that's one of the benefits of being at our firm, is you get a lot of exposure to clients very early on in your career. So this is why this client service piece is so important to me because I want to make sure that as our associates are starting to interact with our clients, they have the tools that they need to be able to do so in a valuable way. I also have- I wanted to keep the sessions on the senior associates because I felt that those were super impactful. We're gonna be talking about their strengths, team marketing, authentic networking, how to prioritise, because there's so many things you can do, but how do you do the most effective ones? And so for all of this, we actually, in my journey of constantly trying to think of ways to have multiple voices at the firm, and not just the one voice all the time, we're partnering with Jennifer Ramsey and Kathleen Hilton at Stage, and they've been a great partner in helping us to create the curriculum and a plan for interactive exercises during these sessions. So every year, I think we'll be, you know, maybe having different voices come to the table, different- maybe even different types of learning. So I'm just trying to be really flexible about what's going- what it's going to look like in the future.

Ali: Yeah, 100%. As you said, it's what- where can you, where can you build on the successes that you've already had, and that have that room for improvement and keep it moving forward because you never want something like this to become stale. Of course, you're getting your associates in and therefore they can address the more basic foundational stuff that you spoke about. But equally, those sort of junior associates will move into senior associates, et cetera, et cetera. You wanna keep it evolving and being able to bring in the, like you say, Jennifer Ramsey and looking at those new voices who've come in to talk about it, do the big sessions where you've got the whole attorneys coming together to talk around client service, I mean, it's just so valuable. And I remember you saying, just thinking about some of the tools, I mean, just if we go back to some of those basics and sorry, this is to remind me almost from the previous question, I remember when we were speaking previously, you were saying even some of the really basic, I suppose foundational business development skills you're getting people to do is actually just going out and maybe meeting former colleagues or meeting with friends who are in particular industries that might be of interest and doing those lunches because for them, you were saying it sort of feels a little bit more natural as a business development piece, but it's allowing them to build some of those skills that maybe they've been taught and therefore can implement in that way. Is that right?

Sheenika: Yeah, we really do focus on that one on one relationship at the firm and so when they are going to these conferences, you know, they're meeting a lot of people, but, you know, just meeting them once a year at the conference isn't really going to create deeper relationships.So we always try to say before the conference, look up at the attendee list and figure out who's gonna be there, and meet and line up the coffees and the drinks, the lunches ahead of time. And then when you meet new people at the conference or old friends have, you know, post conference or post event strategy on meeting with them 1 to 2 months out. And so we want to keep that momentum going and not let these events be sort of that one and done feel and that helps them to the- it's like practice, right, the more you do it, the better you become and I think that is something we're really trying to instil at the firm.

Ali: Yeah, it's so valuable, but I think the thing that comes through with that, as you say, that they've got that practice because you mentioned before, there's so much client facing opportunities even from a more junior position and actually, I think what's really coming through for me in this conversation is that at Greenberg Glusker, because you're given that opportunity, almost the whole idea of reimagining your BD strategy in terms of the training you're doing for the associates, for the trainees, is so impactful because they can actually go away and do it. I mean, not to, you know, take away from any of the bigger firms, but if you're a bigger firm, you're not necessarily getting that exposure, then if you were to do the training you're like, ok, well, how do I go away and use this? But everything you're talking about there, people can go and practice be it, the sort of more easy things that we just touched upon in terms of maybe an old contact or whatever that you see at an event following up with them, or you've done your practice and you go away and do it with clients. I mean, so valuable.

Sheenika: Yeah, that's actually a great point. Thank you for bringing that up. We definitely support our associates. I mean, all attorneys in what their interest lies and of course, we have strategic conversations about whether that fits in within the wheelhouse of what, you know, where our firm really like what we're really good at versus what we probably won't embark upon. But when we have those strategic conversations, we really get to be more effective about the way that we do marketing and yeah, the- all the attorneys have marketing budgets and they submit plans at the end of the year and I hold them to it. So I think that that's the fun part, you know, when you can actually make a plan and then execute it.

Ali: I love that. I love that. And Sheenika to tie this all together, I don't know whether it's gonna be possible to do it in one because there's been so many valuable points, but is there one piece of advice for CMOs who are looking to reimagine their associate training programs?

Sheenika: Yeah, I was thinking about this and I feel like when you're creating a curriculum, you really have to listen to the attorneys, the associates, whoever your audience is throughout the entire year about what they are struggling with, and when you start to listen to what they're not doing great at, or what they have the most questions about, I use those as topics to create the curriculum for the next year. And that- that's how this client service topic came up is because I could see that we really need to do a lot more when it comes to, you know, we have excellent client service capabilities that's, you know, I wanna say that of course, but there's always room for improvement and talking about listening and you know, just the general aspect of client service is applicable in so many areas. So that’s one of the reasons why I honed in on that topic and it's all just because I was listening all year long and sort of keeping mental note about what our attorneys would find the most interesting and valuable and most applicable to their day to day.

Ali: Yeah, 100%. I mean, you're in all of these wonderful conversations the whole time and very uniquely positioned. I think as you know, a marketing team as a whole, but you know, particularly as CMO with interacting with everybody across the board, so as you say, those listening skills are yeah, very valuable so I love that. Thank you very much for wrapping it up like that. That was brilliant. So, but as is a little bit of a Passle tradition, we have the quick fire round just to get to know you a little bit better. Are you ok to go through these five quick questions?

Sheenika: Yeah, of course, let's do it.

Ali: Excellent. So, what's your favourite business and non-business book?

Sheenika: Yeah, I've actually been focusing on reading books by South Asian authors. That's my heritage, so I've been trying to support South Asian authors. And so the recent business book that I read was LifePass by Payal Kadakia, and she's the founder of ClassPass. And then the nonbusiness book that I recently finished is called Unfinished and it's by Priyanka Chopra Jonas 

Ali: Love that, and what was your first job?

Sheenika: It was in my second year of college. I joined tech support and I helped first year college students set up their laptops, WiFi printers, basically anything tech related in their dorm rooms during move weekends. So that was a lot of work, but really fun actually

Ali: Love that, great foundational skills in the world of technology there for you Sheenika. What makes you happy at work?

Sheenika: Oh, that's a good question. I love my firm, I think it's the people for sure. I'm blessed to work with a talented team and everyone at the firm is extremely collegial and supportive and so definitely the people.

Ali: Excellent. What are you listening to at the moment? It could be podcast, music, audio book.

Sheenika: Yeah, this is a funny one because at the moment we have this traditional Indian music playing, it's called Garba and it's because my almost two year old is obsessed with the beats and wants to listen to it all the time. So there's this playlist on Spotify that's constantly on repeat. I guess it's better than, you know, Baby Shark on repeat, that is what we're listening to-

Ali: -and having met him, he is a real bundle of joy and the right character so I can imagine that. And where is your place to visit and why?

Sheenika: I love visiting San Diego and because I lived there for college and law school, I just really enjoy the laid back culture, they have small neighbourhoods with great food, obviously the weather. So I just, it's a place where I go to reminisce about, you know, good times in the twenties since when I was in like in my twenties. And so I do love San Diego.

Ali: Wonderful. Well, look Sheenika, you have been a wonderful wonderful guest. Honestly, I've enjoyed this so much and there have been, you know, even personally, so many takeaways and I'm sure that when people come to listen to this, they're gonna get a huge amount out of it so thank you so much. Also, thank you for the fantastic book recommendation there cos I'm definitely gonna go and read that one about the ClassPass founder. So as I say, thank you so much for such a wonderful conversation, you've been brilliant.

Sheenika: Thank you for having me, this is really fun!