Charles: Building and nurturing client relationships is crucial for successful business development, but the tools and tactics can vary by market and region. On today's episode of the CMO Series podcast, we're lucky to be joined by Will McLaughlin, a marketing and BD expert whose career has taken him from Southeast Asia to the US. Now Director of Marketing at McNees Wallace & Nurick, Will shares his strategies for driving BD Success offering a step-by-step guide to adapting approaches and nurturing client relationships across diverse markets.

Charlie: The CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle. Passle makes thought leadership simple, scalable and effective so you can stay front of mind with your clients and prospects when it matters most. Find out more and request a demo at passle.net.  Now back to the podcast.

Charles: Welcome to the podcast William. 

Will: Thanks, thanks for having me.

Charles: And you've had an impressive career to date, especially with your experience in Southeast Asia. Can you tell us a bit about your journey, how it's shaped your approach to business development and marketing, and what brought you to your role at McNeese?

Will: Yeah. So basically, I was working in the US around 2009, during the whole financial crisis, and I was like you know what? I think it's time to see the world get out of the US, get out of my comfort zone. So I traveled around Southeast Asia with the intention of coming back to the US, but as most things that happened in our life, plans changed and I kind of fell into the legal industry. So I started working at Baker McKenzie and then for a regional firm, and then that regional firm got integrated into KPMG Law. So I've been working in the legal industry for about 15 years. My approach to business development, well in Southeast Asia, it's quite interesting because there's a lot of cross-border work. So I had to navigate the very real cultural nuances from each of those countries and really focus on building relationships in these such diverse markets. In Southeast Asia, you may know that, or in Asia in general collaboration and trust building are essential. So that was a real vital part of my role is sort of that ongoing trust building exercise, and then backing that up with data to sort of personalize all of our, you know, BD initiatives and marketing initiatives. And then moving back, I came back to the US, I mean I spent 15 years there, so it was a long time to wait, a long time to be away from family, and I have a seven-year-old daughter where I think there's a lot more opportunities here for her. So again, I like to get out of my comfort zone. So I moved back and I was lucky enough to find McNees, Wallace & Nurick, where I'm the director of marketing.

Charles: Fantastic. It sounds like you've been on a real adventure the last 15 years. What would you say are the biggest differences in marketing and BD in your previous roles in Southeast Asia compared to what it's like in the US? You mentioned that idea of it's really important to have that collaboration and trust building, but what would you say are the biggest differences?

Will: I joined the legal industry without being in it in the US. Right so the legal industry in the US is a whole separate ballgame than in Asia. So I think one of the biggest differences coming to the US, sort of a culture shock, if you will, is the bar regulations. So in Asia, a lot of the jurisdictions have very, very conservative regulations on how you can market the firm. Some jurisdictions, you're not even allowed to put your logo on the building, right, It has to be sort of like the text. So I remember, you know, I'm almost 40 years old and in the US growing up, I would see sort of the personal injury law commercials, right. You have a DUI, dial 888 for this law firm. So there you don't see any of that, so there isn't a lot of that sort of marketing, traditional like commercials and billboards and all of that. So it was really, the BD marketing was really heavily relationship driven. Focus on, you know, face-to-face interactions, networking played such a pivotal role. And there's a really big focus on trust hierarchy, right, within the firm and who you're meeting and all that sort of indirect communication, you know, when you're dealing with Japanese clients or, you know, other clients in Asia. So, yeah, I would say those are the biggest difference is sort of the conservativeness in there. Also, here we have such a lot of access to really good digital tools and data, and because we're doing all of these sort of marketing efforts, like streaming we can really target the content to who we want it to go to and get in front of those eyes. So looking forward to getting into all of that here.

Charles: Can you maybe touch on some of the marketing and BD strategies that you developed in your previous roles and if you plan to bring some of those across. So some of those ideas about the relationship driven approach, the trust building, those sort of ideas. 

Will: Yeah, in Asia Pacific my strategy I kind of looked at it as two buckets. So the first bucket, the first strategy was sort of involving nurturing local networks which we do here and using international relationships. You know, for example, like law firm referrals. So we did a lot of M&A. So we would, let's say there's a German law firm who has a client who wants to come into Vietnam, making sure that our law firm was connected to all of the law firms, you know, who could refer us work. So that was a big part of it. And really working on those cross border opportunities, is something coming in or is something going out? So I worked a lot with other law firms. I’m here that, you know, not so much the case. Another part of our BD strategy there was really, focus sector, you know, focus on sector driven strategies, using data and client information to shape our BD and marketing initiatives. So what I'm looking to do here is take advantage of all the data we have, right, and really create targeted campaigns that are sort of aligning with our original ambitions here.

Charles: So talking through some of those tools, you mentioned data there. What tools are you using to collect data?

Will: Here or there? 

Charles: Here, sorry. 

Will: Well, here we have very robust data analytics through Google, through all the sort of third party applications. So, you know, when you're sending out content on LinkedIn, or you're having an event, you can literally trace everything using, you know, UTM links and Google Analytics tags and all of that. And you can really trace it and plug it in into your sales funnel within the firm's systems. And you can see the return on investment. How much revenue did this event generate? So it's really easy. You have all of that there. Or if you're doing commercials, if it's streaming, you can really see who has, it's quite scary, right? You can see who has viewed the commercial and then they can track the IP address to see when they actually went to the website, and what buttons that they clicked on the website. So you can really compare okay this piece of content or this campaign generated this amount of calls, and those calls generated this amount of fees. So you can sort of connect the dots and really have a really good look at what you were doing. There in Asia Pacific I kind of felt like okay we're just creating all the stuff throwing it against the wall and see what's stuck, and hopefully we got some work from it. So here, there's a lot more tools I think that we can use.

Charles: So Will, you talk about taking a data-focused approach and really linking internal systems for measurable ROI. What are the most effective ways to do this in your experience?

Will: Yeah, the biggest piece of advice that I would have is to work backwards, right? So I would take, you know, what I've done is take like a month or two and build out your ideal wishlist dashboard, right. Build out that prototype. You can even just use PowerPoint, just see what information do you want to share? Do you want to glean from the data? And work with the management and the firm leaders to see exactly what you want in the system that you're creating. That's good because you will develop something that people want to use and you get good buy-in from leadership. So once you have that, you can take that and when you talk with vendors or your IT team, you can really link all of the things behind the scenes together in a meaningful way. So you definitely have to work backwards and see what information you want to see.

Charles: Yeah, that makes sense. I guess this wasn't in our pre-planned questions, but one of my things I would be keen to know is what are you most excited about getting stuck into? I know you've been in your role for a couple months now. It sounds like you've done some of that, getting a lay of the land and working out the processes to implement. So what are you most excited about in early 2025 kicking off?

Will: Sure. I think like most firms in 2024, 2025, you have data strewn across lots of different places. You have your website data, you have your social media data, you have your CRN, you have all of that. So I'm really looking forward to pooling that together into a cohesive stream of information where we can really get a clear view of what's happening. So from the tech side, just pooling together and integrating all of those things. So right now, like I mentioned, I'm working on those dashboards, working on all of that to get that set up, to put us in a strong place when we're making strategy decisions to say, hey, this practice group is bringing in a lot of work, this practice group isn't, what content could we develop to get more visibility and who can we get that in front of?

Charles: And just a question on those dashboards you're creating. Is that very much for you guys in the marketing function or Will do you see the attorneys having access to dashboards as well?

Will: We serve the attorneys. We serve the partnership. So it's for them and us, so there will be different tabs. So we're using Microsoft Power BI, but you can use any sort of platform, really, but there will certainly be different dashboards for each stakeholders. So the executive committees will have their dashboards, individual lawyers will have their dashboards and then of course the BD and marketing. One thing that's quite unique with the BD and marketing team, and even sort of HR, is we have access to the like we have a view of the whole firm, so your practice group leaders might not know what the other practice groups are doing or what sort of content they're putting out. So we the BD is quite unique, and the BD and marketing team because we get to see that holistic view of the firm and can help shape where we are going. And these dashboards this information is really helpful, like gut checks are important, and you know reaching out to the partnership and seeing what they would like to do. But when the BD team is recommending what we should do it's good to have that backed up by data.

Charles: Yeah and I guess having that sort holistic view, not only are you able to connect the dots for everyone, but yeah as you said you can see what works in different places and apply that to places where maybe it's not working or it's needed.

Will: Exactly and it's and this is very easy to say right it's easy for me to come on and say you need to connect all your databases and stuff but it really takes intentional work. Planning, change management, all the stuff that everyone knows that they need to do. Because it's really fun just to go in and start automating everything. But at the end of the day, you're just going to waste time because not everything needs to be automated. So you really have to look at your firm, look at the culture and each practice group sort of operates in a different way and figure out what works best for everyone and try, and come up with a system. That's why working backwards is the way to go.

Charles: Yeah, so you've got that end point in mind and everything you do, you can work back from that. And we're now at the point in the podcast where we jump into the quickfire round. So Will, here's a chance for us to find out a bit more about you. The first question is, what are you listening to or reading right now?

Will: Yeah, well, I'm a real big podcast fan. So right now, my favorite podcast is Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. I also like The Daily, 99% Invisible and Dear Hank and John.

Charles: There's a good list there. What was your first job?

Will: I actually worked as a busboy in a Western themed restaurant, which had a comedy club and hotel. So I started as a busboy and I moved over to the hotel to cater to all the drunks who left the comedy club.

Charles: A western themed, what so like cowboys and that?

Will: Yeah yeah, it's called Doc Holidays, so western themed restaurant with a bar, a comedy club and a hotel so all the things there, all in one spot. 

Charles: Everything you could wish for yes 

Will: I learned a lot about humans there.

Charles: I bet. Personally and professionally what is one piece of technology you can't live without?

Will: Yeah I don't have the best memory, so I really rely on my to-do app and my project management app. So I mainly use Reminders and Asana.

Charles: Ah very good, what's a small habit you think could help others? 

Will: I don't know if it's so much as a habit, but it's more of a mindset is to try to always get out of your comfort zone, either mentally or physically. Routine is good, but I think that's where we stagnate. So, I always found that good things happen when I get out of my comfort zone.

Charles: I like that. One thing I read once, which I try and introduce in my day is, it says “sometimes following the same routine kills off creativity”. So, when I'm going down to the gym, I always go a slightly different route when I cycle, so I'll take a slightly different road here or cross at a slightly different point and keep it fresh.

Will: Yeah carry that over to everyday life, so brushing your teeth with the other hand, or going to the grocery store and go the other way around. So yeah everything, get out of your comfort zone.

Charles: Cool, and then my last question is what is your favorite place to visit and why?

Will: I'd say my garage and home depot. I'm a tinkerer, so I like to always tinker with things. So I'm either in my garage or Home Depot finding things I can use.

Charles: What projects have you got on at the moment?

Will: Oh, anything from sharpening the lawnmower blades to redoing different things, you know, waxing the car. So I'm always in the garage doing something.

Charles: Fantastic. So we like to end our podcast the same way each week, and that is asking our guests, what is the one piece of advice you would provide to others? So for you, Will, this is what one piece of advice would you give to others looking to drive BD success?

Will: I would say the biggest thing that has impacted my success is coming up with a few revenue-based marketing goals. That's really important to be intentional with your goal setting and everyone knows you should make measurable goals, but I find the whole vanity metrics, like how much engagement did this campaign get is quite, you know, it's just vanity, right? So come up with one or two revenue-based goals that your marketing and BD team will achieve in 2025.

Charles: I like that. That's cool because, yeah, as you said, vanity metrics are nice, but law firms are in the business of making business. So those revenue based goals are probably what those senior stakeholders are probably more interested in, than how many people like to post on LinkedIn or clicked on a website.

Will: Exactly. Because sometimes in firms, there's this whole mentality of timekeeper, fee generating versus support staff. So if your BD team can really show and measure, hey our campaign brought in this amount of fees. And again, you have to link all the data and get that into finance and, you know, figure that out. But once you have those goals and you reach them, you're in a much stronger position to get stuff done that you want to do.

Charles: Wonderful. That's a nice point to end things on, Will. And so thank you for coming on the podcast and telling us how you're looking to drive success at your firm, and tell us a bit about your journey in Southeast Asia and how things were done over there. Really appreciate your time. And we wish you all the best in 2025 with these programs.

Will: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. 

Charlie: That's all for today. Thank you for listening, and make sure you subscribe to the Passle CMO Series podcast on your favorite platform, so you never miss an episode. We'll see you next time.