Will: Welcome to another edition of the Passle CMO Series, where we talk about all things business development and marketing and professional services. Today, getting very close to Christmas, or it feels like it is, we are gonna be talking about building a business development culture in the world's oldest law firm.

What does it actually take to market the world's oldest law firm in today's really hyper competitive landscape? We're gonna be talking to Charlotte Eberlein, who is the Head of Marketing and Business Development. If you're wondering what the oldest law firm in the world is, it's Thompson Snell and Passmore, and I think Charlotte will probably touch upon it, but I think there might even be a Guinness Book of Records, world Accolade there as well.

Charlotte has spent over a decade shaping the firm's strategy and building a business development culture from scratch. Also bringing PR in house, and also leading many of the key initiatives that have kept this 450-year-old brand really fresh and relevant. Under Charlotte's leadership, the team consistently delivers the impact of big law with the resources of a regional, independent law firm.

Charlie: This episode is brought to you by CrossPitch AI. The new cross-selling tool from Passle. Cross-selling should be the easiest way for law firms to grow, but most firms struggle. Why? Lack of awareness, lack of trust, and frankly, fear of selling. The result missed revenue. CrossPitch AI fixes that it breaks down silos, helps professionals connect and delivers timely, relevant insights to the right people inside the firm and out. There's no heavy rollouts. Just switch it on and try it today. Head to CrossPitch.AI to book your demo and make cross-selling happen. Now back to the podcast.

Will: Charlotte. Welcome to the podcast today. 

Charlotte: Thank you Will for having me. 

Will: We're gonna talk about the journey that you've been on and the journey that you've taken the firm on as well, and some of those lessons that you've learned along the way, which are many, I think. So back to the main topic here, which is building a business development culture in the world's oldest law firm. So again, for those that don't know, when did, uh. So it's 450 years. I'm trying to work it out. Charlotte, what year was it established? 

Charlotte: So we, Thompson Snell & Passmore can trace their heritage back to 1570. So we were 455 years old this summer. We have a will that is dated the 22nd of July, 1570. So that is the date that we have as our anniversary. 

Will: Yeah. So I'm, I'm guessing some of the stuff we're gonna go into is. You've got that prestige, that history behind it, how do you sort of modernize that and bring clients along board as well? So I'm sure we'll touch upon that. But firstly, I was gonna just say, you know, you, you did begin your career at much larger law firms before transitioning into your current role at Thomson Snell & Passmore. Are you able to talk everyone through that journey and was there a moment where the business development part really became more of a focus for you?

Charlotte: Yeah, absolutely. I started my career in levels, so that unfortunately proves how old I might actually be. But I started off in a events and training role there where I was organizing training courses for the firm at the time. I quickly progressed from there into the events side of training, and that was where I first got exposed to business development training and running events for clients. Which was much more interesting to me rather than running the internal training events that I had initially been brought on board for. And then over time we started to run international practice area retreats, which were really, really great fun and allowed me to run retreats all over Europe, and they ranged in size from 20 people to 350. I think the biggest one was where we had the whole of the international dispute resolution and arbitration team come together in Brighton. But those events, because the large retreats as we called them, had lawyers from all over the global practice. We very quickly realised that the training elements of that weekend retreat had to focus on business development skills rather than black letter law, because obviously that changed for every jurisdiction where the lawyers came from, so over, probably about three or four years of running these retreats on a frequent basis throughout the year, I had heard many different business development speakers come in, with lots of different ways and skills and tricks and tips of how to do business development. And that was where I realised that actually business development was what really, really interested me. And being in a large law firm, I was very lucky to be able to transfer out of the events team and into a business development practice area role, and I think it was probably the best move I ever made that along with I was in that role when levels became Hogan levels. So I was able to go through the merger process, which although it was very stressful, was really incredibly interesting and really good development for me.

Will: Everyone. I think it's right of passage now, isn't it? Has to go through a merger or a combination as lots of people now call it. Yeah, absolutely. Fascinating stuff. I mean, especially with that 350-person dispute resolution team, you go in from a practice group that's bigger than the firm you're at currently, so. On that note, you know, coming from such a large firm and then coming to that, the regional independent that you're at now, what were the sort of biggest differences that you noticed straight away, apart from headcount and size of office, I imagine, and were there any similarities that perhaps surprised you that you touched upon straight away?

Charlotte: Apart from the obvious of going from a small fish in a big pond to a big fish in a small pond, the main difference is scale. My team still undertakes all of the same tasks that the marketing and BD teams will do in a larger firm. I have less people and fewer systems to rely on. So we provide support to nine practice areas and seven sectors, which I've introduced over the years, as well as internal comms, PR, running the website, doing our competitor checks, gap analysis for billings for key client accounts, referrer mapping, source of business, client listening, social media awards, directories. You name it, we do it. We just do it with a smaller team. But I don't take for granted that we are doing everything and I still go to events frequently, such as Passels events, just to make sure that we aren't missing a trick that people aren't doing things that I haven't thought about. And so far, I think we, we are doing okay. We're holding our own. 

Will: I think one of those events I caught up with you and sometimes it's just sort of double-checking, cross-checking and validating what you're doing is actually, oh, right. Some of these big magic circle firms are doing the same thing, so we must be doing something, something right. I suppose it's also that some of the bigger firms, so I'm told as well, you sort of, you do get siloed obviously naturally, don't you? So. Yeah, a firm of your size, you actually get exposure to a lot more areas and facets of the business. And for people coming up the chain, I suppose, you know, starting their careers, they get exposure to all sorts of marketing and business development.

Charlotte: Absolutely. And I'm really glad that I made the change that I made in terms of going from a London firm to a regional firm. When I did. For exactly that reason. I had been practice area support for the dispute resolution team in London, but since I came to a regional role, I had to learn all of the marketing side, all of the comms side, as well as do the business development side. But being in a regional role also allows me to become. As a head of a lot closer to the business to learn more about how the law firm is managed and how to make the relationships that I need to make with the partners in order to have the influence that I want in order to get my marketing and BD strategies through. And I'm just not sure if I'd gone from Hogan Lovells to another London law firm, even, you know, in a role that was stepping up. I wouldn't have had the exposure that I was really lucky to have had in the last 12 years at Thomson Snell & Passmore. 

Will: Yeah, so I think it's a really interesting point and there's, there's no doubt your team has a reputation of punching above its weight as a result of that. What does it sort of look like in practical terms when you are delivering, I suppose, big law impact, but on a much leaner budget and a smaller scale, I suppose, and maybe can you, for our audience, share some of the key initiatives that have made a big difference for you and the team? 

Charlotte: I think the biggest thing that I rely on in my team is really, really strong levels of communication without us all knowing what each other's doing, but the practice areas that we support and the sectors are up to in terms of activity, we wouldn't be able to function and support the business in the way that we do. And I think we have, since COVID, I put in a daily call really very short, where we catch up. As to what people are doing that day, what they've learned from the day before. If we want to be able to share ideas as to how to support a practice area or a sector with a particular piece of work or a campaign, and they've been invaluable, actually. Not only are they a really good way for us to share knowledge and information about what's going on in the firm, but it's a really, really good way for the junior members of the team to be exposed to all things marketing and business development, and to learn from us. And also for us to be able to involve them in everything that we do. Over the years I've tried to kill these calls, but my team loved them. So five years later, we still have a daily call at 10 o'clock every morning. But I think one of the biggest differences that I've been able to implement was after COVID, and after everybody changed the way that we work and we offer our services to clients. I implemented a client journey mapping project, which I actually undertook in-house, and I hadn't appreciated until I started it that I had probably bitten off more than I could chew by doing it myself rather than bringing external consultants in to do it. But equally, I know the lawyers, and I know the firm, and I knew that I would've got a better response, and I did get a better response from them to this project, doing it in-house rather than having external people come in to run the project for us. 

It was a massive undertaking. I learned a lot. I think we all learned a lot, but it did ultimately make changes to the client journey in the firm. None of them were huge. None of them were particularly groundbreaking because we didn't necessarily have problems, but we just wanted to make sure that the level of client service offered between each department was the same, so that as and when we were able to cross-sell clients, they had the same experience between all of the different areas of the firm.

Will: That's great. Great answer. It's really interesting that you still have your daily call 'cause we do as well at Passle and that actually came from COVID, but I think it is really, really useful because it's often if you, if you've got a weekly meetup, there are often things that slip your mind or they're on the agenda and they go again. Or you've been at event, for instance, today before and it's actually quite useful to tell the team who you. What you learn straight there, you know, there and then, so yeah, it's, it is really interesting that you talk about that. In terms of, we've already discussed it a bit. I gave the game way right at the start. For those that didn't know, Thomson Snell & Passmore do hold the Guinness World Record as the oldest law firm in the world, 450 years plus. Can you tell us a bit more about that story and how. You strike that balance between that prestige heritage and then keeping the brand, the brand modern and relevant as well. It must be quite a hard balancing act. 

Charlotte: Yeah, absolutely. We are really lucky in the sense that we do have something that is uniquely ours. So our Guinness World Record as the oldest law firm in operation is something that no other law firm has. There are other law firms out there who. I know trade on their heritage like we do, but they are probably a hundred years or so younger than we are. So the world's record is amazing, and it's the one thing that people will quote to us every time they come for a job and it's the one thing that really does stick out. But from a marketing perspective, actually it is something of a double-edged sword because we don't want to be seen as traditional and old and stuffy. The reason the firm, I always say the reason the firm has survived 455 years is because we have had to adapt and overcome and make changes and make sure that we stay relevant to our clients. And that is why we are here 455 years later. So yes, we do use our heritage, especially for international work and private client work, and we have fifth-generation clients who genuinely love the fact that we are as old as we are. Lots of newer, smaller commercial firms actually don't know and care that we are 455 years old. They just want us to be as good as we can be to work with modern technology to make sure that we are the best lawyers that we can be, rather than trading on our heritage. 

Will: It's fascinating. Here’s a question for you, Charlotte. You talk about fifth-generation clients. To your knowledge, are there any fifth-generation lawyers that have come through the family and they're still, they're practicing at Thomas Snell now? 

Charlotte: So we don't have a fifth-generation lawyer. We did have a third-generation lawyer, and the story that I love about him, his name, the last practising lawyer in that family was Jeremy Passmore of Thomson Snell & Passmore. But Jeremy's father, he did his version of articles from a prisoner of war camp in World War II, and he did it through the post. That was how he qualified so that after the war, he had a job to come home to. I think there's very few firms who can say that they have lawyers who have done that. 

Will: Yeah, definitely. Especially the American audience, they're gonna be falling off their chair. Okay. We've touched upon the fact that you are a regional firm, you've got the heritage, but of course there is always, I think there was, there's been a number of articles. I remember reading one of the PM forum maybe last year about this, but how do firms of your size compete with limited resources? All these mergers, acquisitions, big budgets, big law things are going on, and it must be hard to know. I think your client journey mapping is a great example, bringing that in-house. Where do you focus your investment, your time, and what do you deliberately sort of leave off the table as it were? 

Charlotte: As you say, time is the biggest constrictor that my team has. We don't lack ambition and we don't lack ideas, and we don't lack things that we want to be able to help the business with. But we have a time constraint. We have a size constraint, and we will probably have a budget constraint that most other bigger law firms won't have. So the temptation is to make sure that we aren't supporting the partners or the practice areas who are shouting the loudest. Therefore, it's fundamental for us to make sure that everything we are doing goes back to helping the firm achieve its wider business planning goals. So we know exactly where the firm has decided it wants to grow, where it wants its priority areas to be, and it's making sure that we support the firm and the business plan, not to the detriment of the other practice areas, but to ensure that we help the firm grow and reach its full potential.

Will: So you're just not moving off that strategic goal really. If, if it doesn't fit into that, then it's probably not on the agenda and worth doing. 

Charlotte: Yes, absolutely. 

Will: Without giving too much away, we're coming to the end of the can year. Looking ahead, you know, Q1, Q2, in 2026, what sort of key projects are you looking at? What are the team looking at to drive forward in that new year? 

Charlotte: We have two audits going on at the minute in-house that the team are running on top of their day jobs. The first one is client listening. As we know, client listening is really vital and we do a lot of it. I'm not sure we necess. Necessarily do it to the best of our ability right now. And I'm always keen to make sure that the client voice is very much at the heart of what we do. So there is an audit going on currently so that we can look to make changes to it in the new year if we need to. And we are also running a brand audit project at the minute because. Some elements of our brand don't truly reflect how the firm has changed in the last couple of years, and I'm really keen to make sure that the brand that people associate with our name is positioned as it should be and relevant to 2026 and not possibly a few years, hence. 

Will: I suppose with both those audits and projects, well, they probably should be done on a regular basis, but they invariably, so I'm told normally lead to other projects. Right, as well. So if you're doing some client listening and they give you some feedback about, you know, X, Y, and Z, you're probably then gonna go, probably gonna try and fix that and that leads to something else.

Charlotte: Yes, absolutely. And if any of my partners are listening to this, I'm doing the brand audit now so that I can probably put in for a brand project when we come to do budgeting next year. 

Will: There we go. Seamlessly done and asked for. Amazingly we're, we are nearly at the end. So thank you so much Charlotte, and I'll say thanks again once we've completed the whole podcast, but really interesting soundbites, especially for, well for everyone, but probably for smaller to midsize firms as well. Some really interesting, actionable insights that you've given. For anyone that is listening and your peers, what would you sort of say to them, especially if they're running a, a regional midsize law firm with limited resources? What one bit of advice would you give them from all of your experiences doing it for a number of years?

Charlotte: I think the biggest piece of advice I would give is to realize that you can't fix every single problem right at the very beginning. If you're new to your job, there will be numerous things that might frustrate you or that you think you can do quicker, faster, smarter, but you can't fix them all at once. I tried at the beginning and realized very quickly that I was spread way too thinly. So find the priority areas. That will have the biggest impact to the business. Fix those first, but at the same time, establish who your real business development advocates are within the partnership and work with them to get them on board and to get them to help you achieve your goals. And sort of as a sideline to that, it's also really vital that you work out how to get things done within your firm. Because it's not always the way that you would think it should be done, or it's with the people that you would expect to have the control. And the quicker you can work out how to get things done, the more effective you will be in your role.

Will: Great bit of advice, just getting the tongues wagging a bit with our quick fire round. So very briefly, what are you currently listening to in terms of music podcast audiobook?

Charlotte:  I have to admit, I do love an Audible. My current audiobook is called Question Seven, which is a book written by an Australian man who is talking about his Father's survival of a World War II camp that he was in, where he was a slave labourer near Hiroshima. And it explores the long-lasting generational impacts of war and all the events that led to the dropping of the atomic bomb. I do have to admit though, to having a much lighter reading book by my bed, which currently is The Names by Florence Knapp. 

Will: I was gonna say, you have to have something that counteracts that. 'cause that is heavy going just before bed. Your dreams must be crazy. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? 

Charlotte: When I was first promoted to head of role many years ago, my chief exec at the time told me to go and find a trustee position with a charity or a governorship of the school to go and get wider board experience to learn about how different environments and different companies work. But most importantly, to watch board dynamics and see how other industries get things done. I now have two trustee positions and really enjoy being able to use my marketing and business development skills to help both charities. 

Will: What book or resource would you recommend your peers in professional services?

Charlotte: So I wouldn't necessarily recommend, I don't have any books that are my go-to, but my biggest resource and the one thing that I would tell everybody to go and do is go and find your peers and go and find the people who will genuinely be your sounding board. Growing a network of people you really trust with the relationships that you can just pick up the phone to say help or have you tried this or what do you do in this situation has been vital to me and my network, is there's probably about sort of 20 odd people that I would say that come from a range of different sizes, firms, national and regional, and in different geographies. But they have been invaluable to me over the years. 

Will: Good bit of advice and I would add in there that I heard recently, if it's not already set up, that sort of ready-made group that you join, set your own up. There was a girl at Clifford Chance I was speaking to and she sort of said she's part of this WhatsApp group where men and female both had kids recently and they're coming back to work and it was like, how can we help each other? You know, we're all in the same situation. How can we. Bounce ideas and thoughts and experiences off each other. So that's what they've done. They've built a WhatsApp group on that, so it's really valuable. So yeah. Great. Bit of advice. What's your favorite way to unwind after a busy day? 

Charlotte: I would love to say trying to get my children to do their homework, but obviously I'd be lying. So where I said that I am a trustee of two charities, one of them is very much in its infancy. There will be news to come on it in spring 2026 because it will be a charity where we are looking to. Bring the whole legal world together. So lawyers, barristers, and general counsel. So it's really exciting, but it doesn't leave me much time to unwind after work because I spend most of my evenings doing work in order to set this charity up.

Will: Sounds very exciting. The kids just have to get on with their homework then and hope for the best. Where's your favourite place to visit and why? 

Charlotte: I genuinely love the seaside. Obviously I would much prefer to be on a hot sunny beach somewhere, but the English coasted can be just as relaxing for me. I love the scenery and I think I love the vastness and the sense of adventure that you can have by the sea and on the ocean and I find the seaside to be really very calming. 

Will: Great stuff. Thank you so much for taking the time, Charlotte, and for, it's not often we have, well, I don't think I've had anyone on the podcast that can say that they're in the Guinness World Record. So pretty exciting stuff. And that's a book by the way that I think my youngest has definitely got on her Christmas list this year, so I'll point to that if I can find it. Thank you so much for giving all of your worldly wisdom and wish you the best for the new year. 

Charlotte: Thank you. Thanks so much Will, for inviting me to be part of your podcast. I've really enjoyed it. 

Charlie: You can follow the Passle CMO series podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.