Will: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series Podcast where we discuss everything from business development and marketing. Today, we're gonna be talking about the big law playbook and taking that playbook, making it work, without that big law budget. It's never been more relevant, especially with lots of growing boutique firms, especially in the US and UK. Scaling a business development function and leaning on external partners instead of a full team, and driving the same high standards and strategy you'd expect from a larger scale operation, it's really, really tough. So today, we're gonna delve into the heart of what it takes to build that function with someone who is right at the center of it. 

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Will: Sarah High is the Director of Marketing and Business Development at Yetter Coleman, a role that she was brought into due to her brilliant experience in big law, and her ability to drive real growth, visibility, and efficiencies with limited resources. Welcome to our podcast. 

Sarah: Thank you so much, Will. I appreciate you having me. 

Will: Cool, no problem. So Sarah, I just wanted to talk about, you know, in terms of your journey, you've come from big law to boutique litigation, and what we're gonna discuss is really about early priorities when you come into that role and what it really means to be a one-person team to start off with, and then build that framework for growth, lean on those external partners, look at AI, deliver big law results on that boutique budget. If we start off, you know, you made the move, we talked about it at the start, you've worked at big law. I mean, you've come from Norton Rose Fulbright, but you've also worked at McDermott, you've worked at Vinson & Elkins. You worked at some of these big law firms. You are now at boutique litigation firm, Yetter Coleman. Can you maybe walk us through the journey and how those experiences at the big law firms have helped you shape the way you're thinking about business development now? 

Sarah: Yeah. I think, you know, you talked about the big law playbook and, to me, that is brand management, scaling business development across practices, you know, investing in technology and infrastructure, and really those key things don't change at a boutique law firm. So, those lessons in brand management and technology and business development have come along with me. The difference is, you know, how do we do that in a boutique environment. The benefit is we get to make decisions at a faster pace and I get to collaborate with leadership a lot more directly than I did at big law. 

I think at big law sometimes, you know, ideas can take a while to percolate to the top for decision-makers to say yes or no and here we can do that much more quickly, which means, you know, I need to be very decisive and I need to be very thoughtful about strategic growth and what I'm asking for from management. And truly, the business development is central. We are growing. We're a growing firm, and business development is central to that, but our growth has to be intentional and it needs to be strategic. And so making sure that everything is through the lens of our strategic plan, but taking those big law lessons. And quite honestly, it could be more important at a boutique. We serve the same clients Big Law does, they don't expect less from us because we're smaller, so they expect a polished firm and that's what we're gonna provide. 

Will: Yeah, that makes absolute sense. It comes back to the client really, doesn't it? Doesn't matter if you're big or boutique, they still expect premium service. It's interesting as well that you talked about that faster pace. I was at Legal Tech Talk, which is a big event, five and a half thousand people in London last week over two days, and there was a really interesting, I don't know if you've ever been to it before, but there were some brilliant speakers and some interesting content. One of the sessions, and you know, talked about throughout the day, was that ‘fail fast’. 

At smaller firms you can do that better. Not saying you fail, but you can try stuff, you're more lean, but it means you can actually get these things signed off at the top and go for them. And then if they don't work, they don't work, but at least you've tried them. And you can do that more at a small firm, so I totally get what you were saying on that side. When you joined Yetter Coleman as Director of Marketing and Business Development, you know, you obviously had a bit of time, let's say, to audit what's going on. What were your early priorities, and how did you then decide what to tackle first when you were looking to scale the function? 

Sarah: Yeah, I think my first priority was coming in and listening and building relationships with the partners. I met with as many partners as possible, and I asked them all the same questions. And the questions were, "What do you think you're doing really well in BD as a firm? And what areas do you think that the firm could be doing better in marketing and business development?" And there were some pretty consistent themes that emerged, and so that helped me determine my priorities because those were the issues that were raised by multiple people in leadership. And so from those conversations, my first focus area was just creating a little bit more structure, you know, moving from more ad hoc to intentional business development and finding the right amount of process. You know, I have worked at big law firms and there can be too much process, but process also helps make things repeatable and we’re not reinventing the wheel every time. So getting some of those foundations in place and making sure that we're all collaborating and working towards sort of a shared framework for business development. And then once I've created some of that, moving more towards infrastructure. 

So as I mentioned, we are growing but you need scaffolding to build and so this is kind of the boring, it's not flashy, but looking at what we can do to better track matters for submissions, or look at our policies for sponsorships and business development expenses, managing pitches and proposals. Getting a lot of those things in order after those conversations I had with partners were really my first two priorities. So structure, infrastructure, so that we can then build and continue growing. I think lawyer time is incredibly valuable. I mean, it is. That is our most valuable resource at a law firm, so we need to avoid inefficiency. All of these things have to be filtered through our firm strategic plan, and so making sure that the processes that I'm putting in place make sense. But those are really my two after listening, it was kind of setting in some structure and infrastructure. 

Will: Yeah, and it makes absolute sense to me looking in because then you can, you know, if you're trying to scale your area of the business as well, you've got, as you called it, the scaffolding in there where people can come in and run with that, right? You've got a plan. In terms of Yetter Coleman as a firm, because with some of the boutiques and especially being in litigation, you know, some people may not have heard of you guys. But you've actually been around now, you celebrated your 30th anniversary. You've got a really strong reputation in litigation. How did you or how does the firm balance honoring that heritage whilst then pushing the firm's visibility and growth into new territories? 

Sarah: Yeah, I think that's a really good question. So, you know, I believe Yetter Coleman has a very clear identity. They are trial lawyers full stop. They are known for handling the toughest cases and they go to trial. They're smart. They have excellent client service. And so my job is to not change any of that, that's to amplify what already makes this firm stand apart. And so really that just means modernizing visibility and business development efforts which goes back to, you know, the infrastructure that we have in place so that we can grow, and introducing new technologies where it makes sense. Once again, we're looking through that strategic plan, and when we're investing in technology, we're making sure we're doing it in the right order. We're making sure that the things that we're investing in make sense for us. And then really the test for every idea or initiative is does this feel like Yetter Coleman and does this align with our strategic plan? And I think that the partners at this firm have done a great job of positioning themselves for the past 30 years, it's just my job to amplify that a bit more with some modern visibility and BD efforts. 

Will: Yeah, I love that framing of the modernizing the visibility and amplifying it because many firms, you know, the lawyers are doing really well and they don't know that they can do it even better, right? And you come in and you sort of don't upset the apple cart too much, you just wanna modernize it a bit so that they get their, you know, they get their just rewards even further into the market. And, you know, with you being just you in the team when you came in, I'm guessing you had to then lean on partners, vendors, technology as you've already said. How do you sort of then manage those relationships and turn those outside partners into what feels like a real extension of the team? How do you lean on them really? 

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, I rely on our outside partners quite a lot. As you've mentioned, I'm a team of one currently, and to be clear, this is all still relatively new. As of this recording, I haven't been in the position almost, almost five months. So we've been doing a lot of work in those five months, and our vendors have really helped get me up to speed. There was a lot of continuity in the vendors, so that was helpful for me because they could kind of help me get up to speed. I think what makes those relationships work best are just very clear expectations, strong communication, making sure that they know who we are, and so that onus is on me to provide context to them and make sure that they understand who we are as a firm, and then give direct feedback, you know, both positive and constructive. And I think that goes both ways. I'm happy to give my vendors feedback, but I want them to give me feedback too on, "Hey, we could be more efficient if you did this," or, "Perhaps we can move a meeting, instead of every two weeks, we do it every week because it's a busy time." You know, I want that feedback, and I desire that feedback so that we can be a true partnership and that they are invested in the firm's success and, as you said, they're an extension of my team, and so I think communication, expectations, and just transparency makes that work well. 

Will: Yeah, it must be really interesting as well because you're obviously going on this journey. So I mean that roadmap needs to evolve as well with time, so you need the right partners, don't you, to come on board with that. So yeah, I can fully understand the direct feedback and communication on that front must be super important. In terms of AI and the tech you are using, how are you making that sort of work with the limited resources? I know obviously that's leaning on some of these tech providers, but could you talk through maybe how you're managing to get the firm and you're using some of these tools day-to-day, and how that's making the biggest difference really? 

Sarah: Yeah. So I joke that Copilot is my coworker, but I mean, it kind of is in some ways. To be clear, we do have a very explicit AI policy, and so lawyers down to staff, we follow that. But I definitely use AI, it just helps scale my impact as a one-person department and it helps give me some time back. So, day-to-day uses that I have found the most effective are, sort of, drafting and refining content. Also, creating consistency across materials. I think it's important, you know, when you have a brand, you want your messaging to be the same throughout, and AI's helped me identify where documents may need or what assets may need help with that. And honestly, it helps reduce administrative work. So, while AI's never the final product, it kind of gets me going faster than if I'm staring at a blank page myself, and it just helps me do, honestly what Yetter Coleman has hired me to do, which is to be the director and provide forward thinking, and it helps me be less reactive and a little bit more proactive thinking about our growth.

Will: It's amazing how some of this technology now can be used to just get rid of some of that mundane stuff, but as you talked about, just make it super simple to get communications right, get that uniform nature across all the business as well. So yeah, good stuff doing that. You were brought in specifically because, you know, I think we had this off the podcast, off camera, because of that big law experience. What have you carried across from that world that you used to be in, that works really well at a boutique level, and what have you had to sort of rethink where you thought, "You know what? This isn't gonna work at all"? 

Sarah: Yeah. I think, you know, big law is, I think I said this before, they're really good at brand consistency. They're really good at data-driven decision-making, and they have very defined pitch and submission processes. So those things translate and are things that I have brought over from big law that I think that Yetter Coleman, you know, could benefit from. The changes that matter at a boutique because I don't have a large team, right, as a safety net to say like, "Hey, you missed that submission" or, "This is due." So, really making sure that those processes are in place. And expectations are still very high so, you know, just making sure, as they are at big law. And so taking all of that moving forward, I think the biggest mind shift for me has had to be to not try to run, you know, 15 new initiatives at one time. I just don't have the team to do that. 

And so really focusing and being very thoughtful, looking through that lens of the strategic plan, saying, "What are the two or three efforts that are gonna move the needle most?" And honestly, having learnt how to say, "Not yet," and not necessarily to lawyers, but mostly to myself. Because there's a lot of things that, there are exciting things happening here and there's a lot of things I wanna do, but recognizing, like I said before, we can do anything, but we can't do everything at once. And so being very thoughtful about what those initiatives that we're gonna tackle, that's been a little bit challenging for me because I just wanna do it all. But yeah, I think, as mentioned before, the things translate. We're expected to do the same things big law does, just on a leaner scale.

Will: Yeah, and you'll get there as well. I mean, it sounds like you're doing it, you're scaling it in the right way because if you take on too many things, things are gonna fail, which again, is part of the parcel, but you just haven't got the resources to do it. It's interesting you talked about the data-driven decisions as well 'cause, you know, big law has lots of data, don't they? They've built it up over time and you guys, smaller firms don't always have that. So again, it's something you can put in place, but you don't have that to lean on. So no, it's fascinating. Thank you so much, Sarah. I'm just gonna ask you a few quick-fire questions, Sarah. So straight off the bat, what are you currently listening to? And that's music, podcast, anything. 

Sarah: Yeah. So, well, I'll say I've been listening to a lot more Michael Jackson. My kids have discovered him given the movie, so somehow that is now on my Spotify playlist more. But, I have been listening to the Texas monthly podcast, ‘Where the River Took Us’. I'm not sure if everyone's familiar, but last summer in Texas there was this horrific flood, and so it's been a really interesting podcast to get perspectives on people's lives on rebuilding after that flood. So I highly recommend it to anyone who lives in Texas if they wanna learn a little bit more about that. 

Will: There we go. Fascinating stuff. I'll check it out. What's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given by someone? 

Sarah: Yeah. I've thought about this and the one that I keep coming back to, especially in my current role is ‘you can do anything, but you cannot do everything at once’. And I think that is important probably in every aspect of life, but that's the one I keep coming back to most recently. 

Will: It's a good mantra that. For our listeners, what would you sort of recommend in terms of a resource, business resource or anyone, doesn't have to be business actually, but anyone in the area of law that's doing your role? 

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this is a common answer, but I have found the Legal Marketing Association to be one of the most valuable resources that I've had in my career. I mean, not only the network I've built, but the educational resources that they provide to keep you current on trends, I have found to be very useful. 

Will: Brill. Yeah, we know it very well and support it. It's a great, it's a great network for anyone that's not a member. Sarah, you're super busy, what's your favorite way to unwind after a long day? And I know, same as me, you've got kids, so it's quite tricky sometimes.

Sarah: I was gonna say, do we do that? Do we unwind? I feel like I take my second job from, you know, 6:00 to 9:00 as an Uber driver for my children. So, I guess driving around is how I unwind sometimes. But really, if there's a night at home, my husband and I like to watch Ted Lasso, and somehow, don't judge my parenting, my kids have gotten into poker, so we'll play poker as a family when we have the time. 

Will: Oh, wow. No, I'm not gonna judge you on that. I'm all for that. And Ted Lasso's pretty good, pretty good timing with obviously the World Cup going on at the moment as well, so yeah, two good ways to unwind. Now, we have had some off podcast chat about holidays, so what is your favorite place to visit and why? 

Sarah: So I have two answers to this. So if it's my favorite place in the world to visit, I would probably say South Africa. But if it's a place that I visit more regularly, my parents have a lake house north of Houston, and don't tell my dermatologist, but I love getting on the boat and being in the sun on the water. So those are my two favorite places. 

Will: Both sound pretty dreamy to me. Brilliant. Thank you for your answers on that. We're down to the last question, actually. So I know it's flown, 'cause you've been having so much fun, that's why. Finally, for the other sort of people that are listening to this, other BD and marketing leaders, maybe even folk that are doing the same journey as you. They’re coming from big law into boutique, or they're taking their first CMO role at a smaller firm or whatever it might be, where they're trying to scale something. What is your sort of number one, I know it's hard, but if I nailed it down to number one piece of advice, what would that be to people doing that? 

Sarah: I think my biggest piece of advice would be to build relationships before programs, because it's important that you know your firm. You need to know leadership, you need to know the culture. I think that they appreciate that I came in and wanted, not only to get to know what they thought was working and not working in BD, but to get to know them. I think it kind of laid a foundation of trust. I remind people, "You know what? I haven't even been here five months yet." And they'll be like, "No way. I think it's so much longer." But to really get buy-in for when you are saying, "Hey, I think the next best step for our firm, you know, looking at our growth objectives, looking through our strategic plan, my expert opinion is that we need to do X," If you have those relationships in place, they're gonna be a lot more willing to listen to you, than if you came in on day one and said, "Okay, this is what we're doing," without any true understanding of the people that you're working for because really, at the end of the day, a law firm is about the people that are working inside of it. 

Will: That's great advice. And actually at a smaller firm you can do that, right, as well? You can actually make the difference and build those relationships far quicker as well. 

Sarah: Absolutely.

Will: Well, Sarah, thank you so much for giving your time and advice, and we wish you all the luck scaling it and it sounds like you're doing a great job after just five months, but all the best for the future. 

Sarah: Yeah. Thank you so much, Will. I appreciate this. It was fun. 

Charlie: You can follow the Passle CMO Series Podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.