This week on CMO Series REPRESENTS we’re joined by another group of leading women in professional services marketing to discuss the techniques they have developed throughout their careers to build confidence in their capabilities. We also take a closer look at some of the innovative initiatives firms are creating to embed equity within their culture.

Our esteemed guests share their unique perspectives and lived experiences which have shaped their growth, and they discuss the importance of having confidence in their own abilities to build resilience and respect within the profession.

We’re thankful to hear from Silvia Van Den Bruel, Marketing & BD Director at Hausfeld, Rachel Hussey, Clients and Markets Partner at Arthur Cox, Lea Kusano, Head of Communications at Kellerhals Carrard, Lisa Vicine, Chief Marketing Officer at Arnall Golden Gregory, Joanna Hansen, Head of Marketing and Business Development at Morton Fraser Lawyers, Danielle Paige, Chief Marketing and Growth Officer at Nixon Peabody, Amelia Stirling, Chief Marketing Officer at Burges Salmon, Nancy Kostakos, Chief Marketing Officer at Cooley, Jill Huse, Partner at Society 54, Anna Hedgepeth, Director of Business Development at Cranfill Sumner, and Sarah Ryan, Director of Marketing and Business Development at Stark & Stark.

Transcription:

Charlie: Welcome to CMO Series REPRESENTS brought to you by Passle.  

I'm Charlie and on this week's episode, we discuss the techniques women across professional services marketing have developed to build confidence in their capabilities and the experiences that shape their careers, as well as a closer look at some of the innovative approaches firms are taking to embed equity within their culture.

Our first guest reflects on her experience working within the profession and how small collective changes can lead to a greater shift when it comes to embracing equity. We welcome Silvia Van Den Bruel, Marketing and BD Director at Hausfeld.

Silvia: What you may not know, is actually that I started my career in finance in the early 90s. And I can just say that we have come a long way when it comes to experiences as a woman. Going from financial services to professional services was actually a quite nice transition, because the days that the assumption that you were in a room to either pour the coffee or make the notes are I think mostly over. 

Actually, I have had some great experiences working with men, and actually, I think that some of my worst experiences were actually working with female bosses. And I think that it has less to do with the fact that they were either male or female, but more with what made them up as a person, what their characteristics were, what defined them as leaders and less about their genders. So the experiences have been both good and not so good.

Now how law firms can become more equitable and embed that in their culture is really a big question to resolve in a very short space of time. But I think there's two elements to it. One of them is from the top down and the other element is from the bottom up. So when I'm talking about top down, I think that is just really the law firm management as a whole. And then from the bottom up, these are actions that each and every one of them, of us, can do, and small actions I think always make a big difference.

So when I just go to the law firm management first, I think there really has to be a will to be looking inwardly and really looking at, you know, what you're doing well, what the law firms can improve on. And I think the acceptance that everything is not perfect and being vocal about it and actually being able to admit that it's not perfect is a really big hurdle for law firms because obviously, inherently what they do is, they want to give people perfect advice and they want to be perfect as lawyers. So I think that's quite a vital point. I think it's also about ownership. If law firms can make someone responsible for bringing equity into a law firm, then that I think is quite an important step to take. If I'm talking about from the bottom up, then I think we don't have to wait till a policy comes into place or a process is being introduced. And I think each and every one of us can do little things to either make a change or shift something or, make people understand that their behaviour is perhaps not um ideal and has consequences. And I think the, the one thing that stood by me and it's a fair number of years now, but I don't know if you remember Madeleine Albright saying “there's a special place in hell for women who don't help other women.” And that is actually something that always really struck me and I've really tried to stand by it and we can do so much on a very small scale to look at our teams, for example, and to see who is lacking the confidence or who is lacking the knowledge or, you know, of stepping out of their shell. And then we can do so much to help make that happen. And I think mentoring and mentorship is always something that I thought we could really do both from the top down and bottom up.

If there is a mentorship program that law firms can do where people can buddy up and give people advice and a listening ear in a very confidential space, then I think with these small actions we can ultimately make a difference.

Well, my advice for women entering the industry is that there is so much to it. But I think sometimes the person putting most pressure on you is you. And I think we just have to sometimes accept and see that. I think for every yes that you get, you will receive 10 no's. And I think that shouldn't deter you.  Don't expect to be handed everything on a plate, go out and get it. I think treating others as you like to be treated yourself. Everyone receives a voice and you use it smartly, make time to mentor. I think mentoring can change someone's life. Learn how to say no. I think women are not very good at saying no. And I think we need to get better at that. I think also the last one is respect is something you earn. You need to earn it in your professional life. You need to do things that make people turn around and offer you the respect that each and every one of us deserve.

Charlie: Rachel Hussey, Clients and Markets Partner at Arthur Cox, discusses the importance of positive language when creating an inclusive workplace and shares her advice to women coming up in the industry.

Rachel: I have been in this business and this profession for a long number of years. And I suppose I distinguished between my experience as a woman and my experience as a, I suppose, a business professional in a professional services firm. And I think, I suppose with, as with anybody's career, I've had a mixture of, you know, good, bad and every other element of experience. But I think that one thing I've really noticed since I did begin this role - I did start off life as a practising lawyer - and I did that for a number of years, and then at the turn of the century, which is a very long time ago, I went more into the business side and I sort of evolved my role and indeed the whole team's role since then. And I think there's been a real sea change in people's attitude to people, not just women in professional services firms and people who are in business services. And I think law firms have really evolved into being a large dynamic businesses that now appreciate the role that BD and marketing can play in the kind of growth strategy of the firm.

I think people used to refer to support services and were still back offices but I think this whole much more professionalisation of law firms including calling people business services. And I think as well, I think any sentence or word that starts with the word ‘non’ is very backward. I think that referring people to ‘non-lawyers’ or even ‘non-billable time’ is not very helpful and we need to come up with more positive names for people in the business services area. And you never hear people calling people ‘non-doctors’ in hospitals. So I think we should really ban the use of that word in this area.

So I think on balance very positive experiences and getting more positive by the day, given the attitude to professionals in law firms, I think in the past there was, “Oh yes, we have somebody, we have a DEI Officer and they kind of deal with all our diversity issues.” The truth is that equity and equality in particular and you know, all types of diversity.  But I think that gender diversity and given that we're speaking around International Women's Day is a really important business imperative for law firms. The truth is the business case in law firms is compelling that the vast majority or certainly, the majority of law graduates are women. So if you cannot attract and retain those people in your business, then that's a bit of a disadvantage to say the least. Our clients are very focused on this and they expect their firms along with all their other suppliers to have a diverse group of people working in and in fact servicing those clients.

So that's a really important element and then also all the data and statistics show that diversity is really good for business and makes people make the firms and organisations make better business decisions. I think the business case is a no-brainer. The question is how do you do it

And that's a little bit more tricky. And I think, there are a few key elements to that when the tone has to come from the top, the person leading the firm and any kind of management committee or executive committees need to really believe that this is an important business issue. And the other aspect is data because as we know, lawyers and everybody else in fact loves evidence. And so the only way you can actually prove that you're making a difference and moving that tile is by having data. And in some cases even targets for percentages of um you know, whether it's people on committees in the firm or the percentages of women partners and gender is really important.

But I think if you can crack gender you can really crack any other aspect of diversity as well. If you're making an organisation more welcoming to more people, I think that will have a knock-on effect across the board. I'm always loath to give people advice but I suppose I do have, in fact, loads of advice. It's very hard to break it down into one piece. But I do think, particularly for women, I think it's really important to back yourself and I know that can be really difficult to do and I sound as if I, you know, always managed to do that myself and I didn't, so I think that don't listen to the voices in your head that say, “oh, you can't do this or why are you here?” "Why are you in this room?" I think that everybody feels like that from time to time including men, of course, and I think it's really important to not listen to those voices. But I think from in a professional services firm in particular and those other pieces of advice are for anybody really going into the business environment. But in professional services, I think it's really important to take networking very seriously from the beginning of your career. And whether it's as a lawyer or as a business service person because who you know, internally and externally, is going to be invaluable to your career for the rest of your business life and probably beyond that.

Charlie: The gender pay gap is still high on the agenda for those seeking true equity and our next guest, Lea Kusano, Head of Communication & Marketing at Kellerhals Carrard joins us to discuss her experience and the importance of self-esteem in building resilience.

Lea: My experiences as a woman, they go long back ago. I've been working in communications for about 20 years. But I would like to point out two experiences I made, the first one when I was working for a Swiss Union, this was a really negative experience back then. I ran a national campaign, and within the campaign I realised that a colleague, a male colleague, earned much more than I did, although he was just doing a website for another campaign and he didn't have a master's nor a bachelor's. I had one and he earned about 30,000 Francs more than I did. 30,000 Francs is about €30,000. So that was really a lot. And I was very disappointed to have or make this experience within a union which is considered to help the employees on the ideological level. And I realised that they don't do it internally and an observation that I made, especially as a woman is that we are socialised differently. This is not per se a good thing, but it's still a fact. And I think listening in communications is one of the most important skills. You need to be a good listener. And I think women tend to be better listeners than men do. 

To embrace equity within a firm, I think the most crucial element is still socioeconomic equity, not gender equity because everything begins with socioeconomic equity. So I think the most important item within a society is to have a very accessible educational system including universities. Then when it comes to gender equity, I think at least when it concerns Switzerland, the change will really happen bottom up because we now have 60% of the students that are female. So they will be on the market sooner or later and the firms will have to adapt and talk about adapting. 

I think the most important quality is to be really, really empathic within the firm and within the culture of the firm and to have kind of genuine and honest respect towards different lifestyles and other realities. My advice to women who would like to enter this working field is to have a really, really good self-esteem. And when I say self-esteem, I mean that they have to be really clear about their strengths and weaknesses because this increases the resilience a lot. Self doubt and imposter syndrome affect most professionals at some stage. Understanding and recognising your value and the contribution your unique perspective can add to collaborative projects can be fundamental to success. 

Charlie: Lisa Vicine, Chief Marketing Officer at Arnoll Golden Gregory joins us to share her thoughts and guidance.   

Lisa: My experience as a woman in professional services marketing is that essentially early on in my career, I didn't see myself contributing to my organisation as a woman. I just saw myself contributing as a worker, somebody that worked there. It really never occurred to me that being a woman may have had an impact, positive or negative on my career growth and others willingness to work with me or include me in projects. I just simply always attributed those occasions to my performance and whether I was well liked within the organisation. So fast forward nearly 30 years when it has really only been recently that I've been conscious of how being a woman may have impacted my career along the way, I'd say. As my career progressed, I became more engaged in high level projects, often working with and meeting with other leaders who were more male than female. And there were times then and there are still times today when I am the only woman in a conference room and I've only recently attributed any difference of opinion or alternate suggested approaches. I may have to face the fact that my brain works different than my male counterparts. And if I can, will offer an honest anecdote. When I found myself in meetings where I was thinking about something differently or wanting to take a different approach to a project, I used to really simply think that maybe I wasn't fully understanding the project or not following the dialogue in the room. And so sometimes I wouldn't even offer a counterpoint because my biggest concern there was that others in the room would think I just wasn't able to follow the conversation and see that as a weakness of mine.

So I really have only recently. And by recently, I mean within the last few years, given myself grace when I am the only differing voice in the room because I now more fully understand and embrace that my female voice is different and there is value in diverse opinions and viewpoints and that's a good thing for creating healthy dialogue. So I I think the way that law firms can embrace equity and embed it in their culture um are a number of different ways and I think my sense is at least that law firms are starting to do this on a more consistent basis.

My opinion is, it's important for firms to really strike the right balance between communicating whether that's internally or externally how the firm is investing in its female workforce and implementing the programs to do just that. In other words, it's important to do what we say we're doing. Our firm in particular has a fairly robust women's initiative that provides programming for professional and personal development and really is working to connect our female colleagues who are at similar stages of their personal and professional lives, which provides much needed peer support for attorneys and staff.

I would also say firms that offer competitive and generous maternity leaves, greater schedule of flexibility and remote working options for new and working moms will truly demonstrate the firm's commitment to investing in and retaining its female personnel. I would say, you know, embrace your female voice in the benefits it has to offer your organisation, you know, your ability to provide diversity of thought and perspective to any conversation is a healthy thing, particularly in any male dominated industry. But my recommendation there would be to recognise how to use your voice to your advantage, to strengthen and enhance relationships and your communication style. All the while being conscious that your voice may be one of many. So it's important to find a way to give grace to others who may be offering a different perspective or who are looking through a different lens for how to tackle, say a particular project. I think where your voice will be beneficial in those scenarios will be to express your desire to bridge the thinking gap and find a common solution to the issue at hand while still being mindful that continuing to push any counterpoint or alternate viewpoint may simply alienate you from others in the room. And really at the end of the day, even though we know male and female voices differ, the expectation is that as colleagues, everyone should be working toward the ultimate shared goal of contributing to the organisation's success.

Charlie: Next up, Joanna Hanson, Head of Marketing and Business Development at Morton Fraser shares the pioneering women focused programs that her firm is implementing and recommendations for women entering the industry.

Joanna: My experience as a woman in professional services has largely been a positive one since joining the firm. In 2016, Morton Fraser has gone from strength to strength to strength with regard to equity from gender diversity at management board level to setting up employee resource groups. There's several meaningful ways that we are supporting women. I am on the ERG for women, which has introduced policies that previously never existed such as fertility and time off treatment for menopause and late night working taxi policy to ensure that women feel safe getting home on those occasions that they need to work unsociable hours.

We now collect diversity data which has highlighted where we can be doing much more and where we are getting it right just now. Having this data has helped us to put serious energy behind closing the gap that exists and being able to tell a much more meaningful story for how we're going to get there, and crucially, by when. Law has traditionally been quite well, has been quite traditional in its makeup and outlook, but that's changing and it's not only great to see, it's amazing to be a part of. 

For me, books such as The Authority Gap by Mary Ann Sieghart are a fantastic way to understand how we got here just now and certainly has given me and I would suggest others the confidence to shake up the status quo.

Charlie: Danielle Paige, Chief Marketing and Growth Officer at Nixon Peabody, shares the initiatives empowering professionals at her firm and urges women to be unafraid in their careers.

Danielle: I joined the work force after university in the late 90s, technology was really the hottest sort of place to work at that point in time. You know, entering what was really truly a male dominated um industry in a role that was also male dominated, I think, taught me a ton about my own sort of capabilities, my own appetite for challenge and taught me at a really early stage in my career that proving myself, you know, is a lot more than just sort of showing up. I was very often the only woman on a sales team or in a call or in a data center. I was super, super fortunate way back when to have a mentor, who was a man at that time who, you know, never treated me any differently. But required me to put sort of excellence and client service first. You know, I think he also never put any guardrails around what I could try. And I think that made me a bit unafraid early in my career, which I still you know, hold as a value that I have, I try to, you know, be unafraid in the workplace. 

During the agency. I don't think I've ever felt that because I was a woman I either had more or less opportunity. So much of it is about delivering outstanding client work and being a great peer and a great contributor and then a great manager and then a great leader. That I think that male or female, it's, you know, sort of less relevant when I was interviewing for Nixon, one of the things that really stood out to me as an attractive attribute of the firm was their commitment to DEI.

They were looking to make a change, not only at the firm, but at the industry level, we have a brilliant Chief Diversity Officer who I'm fortunate enough to partner with. She is a former attorney who has really dedicated her career to creating a, you know, a really meaningful actionable set of DEI goals and then in turn programming and tactics to help make that real.

So we're part of a few programs. So one is move the needle that is associated program with diversity labs. We take part obviously in the Mansfield rule. But under the leadership of our Chief Diversity Officer, I can really see you know, noticeable and measurable improvement year over year.

I think women need to be unafraid. I think if you have self doubt or imposter syndrome or feel like you don't have a voice at a table, sometimes that is a conversation you're having with yourself in your own head. And I think that having the courage to, you know, sort of speak up to own the seat that you have to contribute in a way that is you know, constructive and intelligent and lead with integrity. I think that will help you to, you know, sort of really earn the respect that you need to be successful over the long term.

Charlie:  Amelia Stirling, CMO at Burges Salmon joins the conversation to share her experiences in legal marketing and how effective communication has helped overcome some of the barriers she has faced.

Amelia: I have worked across a number of sub sectors within professional services. I've worked for a firm of surveyors. I've predominantly been in law, but I've also worked for a big four accountancy firm. So I've had quite broad experience. Generally, my experience has been really positive and I feel quite lucky, in fact, actually being a female in some businesses has been quite helpful. I joined a Magic Circle law firm nearly 20 years ago. And whilst there were few female partners there, there were quite a few senior business services professionals. And so I had some really good role models, which I think was very helpful. It definitely took a while for me to get used to being one of only a few females in meetings, particularly those meetings were, which were very partner heavy, but generally I felt very encouraged and supported. There were times when maybe I felt I wasn't being listened to or talked over because of my gender. And I do still see that a little bit, but I think it's really helped to teach me to communicate really effectively and also to prepare very well for meetings. And in fact, when I was more junior, I used to talk to my boss for example, and about my role in a particular meeting or particular points that I wanted to get across so that he would ensure that I was given time to do that. So that was quite helpful.

In terms of kind of not so good experiences, probably the worst experience as a female was the feedback I got following a promotion interview which took place a couple of weeks after I got back from maternity leave. Unfortunately, I wasn't given the promotion and the key feedback point was around me not being visible in the business, particularly with key stakeholders. So obviously, that would have been quite tricky when I'd been on maternity leave. Anyway, I moved on from that and actually left that organisation quite quickly. But generally, in terms of progression, I haven't found my gender to be an issue. As I said, I've been really fortunate to have some good role models and mentors, both male and female. And they have helped me navigate my way around businesses in which I've worked and provided support to me, particularly when I've been facing any challenges, I think with the work that is being done in many professional services organisations to be much more focused on gender equity, I think there are some fantastic opportunities to develop and build really fulfilling careers in this environment.

Charlie: Our next guest discusses how meeting skepticism with confidence and knowledge has helped her evolve in the profession. We welcome Nancy Kostakos, Chief Marketing Officer at Cooley.

Nancy: I have been in this profession for over 25 years now. So I've had a long experience. I would say when I started, legal marketing was really very much at the beginning of its you know, status as an actual profession. I've really evolved and grown with the industry. I have a particularly sort of creative side to me and strategic. And so I've always really tried to kind of push the envelope and that's been the wonderful thing about being an industry that was evolving as my own career was evolving.

But I can say that you know it hasn't always been easy, especially in the early days of my career when I was, you know, more junior I felt like I was often really challenged um by the lawyers that I worked with. They were skeptical that I could you know, understand what they did and be useful in helping them promote their practices. And I was frequently challenged. But I did find that when you are confident in your capabilities and you really do um have a reason for recommending a particular thing and have the confidence again to actually say this is my reason and this is why I think this is the right approach that even the toughest lawyers will back down because I think what they're really doing is trying to challenge and make sure that you do in fact know what you're doing.

I do have one story that I can share that was very satisfying for me, but it ultimately wasn't really a great experience. It was back when I was relatively junior and I had a particular partner that was constantly challenging me. I think it was just his favorite activity to try and find something wrong with marketing and something wrong with what we had done, you know, looking for errors on our website, looking for things that didn't make sense, that's kind of thing. So I would get calls from him almost on the daily to tell me that this didn't seem right or that didn't seem right and I'd have to defend it. But at one point he noted that I had gone to Harvard, which I guess was of interest to him and he asked me about it because he too had gone to Harvard for law school. And, I said, “yeah” jokingly, I said, “yeah, I'm fifth generation. That's how I managed to get in.” And so fast forward a little bit and I um was doing something with his biography and I noticed that he had gone to MIT as an undergrad. So I said to him, “Oh, David, I didn't realise you had gone to MIT, my father went there” and he stopped in his tracks, the usual story trying to trip me up. And he said, “well, how could you possibly be fifth generation Harvard if your father went to MIT?” And I just looked at him and I said, “I have a mother.” So that was a big satisfying moment. But it also was a little bit indicative of what I was dealing with. There is that I think there was some skepticism that uh women could perhaps be as intelligent or capable.

I was particularly lucky to work with two chairmen when I was at Goodwin, who were wonderful leaders but really considered me their partner and gave me the opportunity to be a significant contributor to how the firm was positioned in the market. The traditional law firm is very dominantly male and white and we have worked incredibly hard to make a law firm become more diverse in the last 10 years. And I think that the most important thing is just to, accept everyone for who they are, understand that multiple perspectives on a problem are going to get you to a much better solution. If you can bring in those multiple perspectives, you're going to be a stronger, firm in the long run. I prioritise team first, so I don't really care how strong your skills are. If you are not a team player and you're not somebody who wants to contribute to the greater good and to the overall team effort, then I'd rather not have you on my team so I can teach skills, but I cannot teach attitude. And I think having an enthusiastic attitude, a willingness to work, work hard and a willingness to pitch in and support your teammates is probably the most important thing there is.

Jill: Jill Huse, Partner at Society 54 joins the conversation to reflect on her career and encourages women to use their voice to advocate for themselves as well as others.

Jill: So I've seen an evolution happen in my last 20 plus years in this industry. Early on in my career, I wasn't as supported by other women. I think that they felt as if they had to claw their way to the top so we should have to do the same. I remember one instance where I was sharing some exciting news of being pregnant with my female boss at that time and I was a Director and she was a Chief and she told me to bring a blanket and a pillow in and if I didn't feel well, I could close my door and lay down under my desk. So that was her response to me sharing this life changing news with her. And I saw this happen with other female law partners that I worked with not extending that helping hand to other junior partners and associates to kind of help them elevate. I now see women advocating for each other every single day. It may just be a generational shift that's happening, but it's been impactful to me to see my colleagues helping each other attain their goals. Oftentimes, redefining what success looks like. We're crafting new paths for one another and bringing others with us for this journey. Kind of back to the rising tides, lift us all.

I've also seen a huge shift in our roles while we once may have been seen as like true administrators in that capacity, many of my female colleagues have attained that trusted advisor status now really serving in a strategic role as the voice to their respective colleagues. Women, I feel, just bring a different sense of empathy community in collaboration that sometimes their male counterparts may lack. Now as women in tech, on this side of things and being techpreneurs, I've seen this kind of change evolve as well,  similar to the legal industry where we as women have to kind of chart this new path again. And it's exciting to be part of that.

I believe the most successful firms are the ones that bring balance into leadership. So diverging thoughts, enhanced perspectives, really mastering the soft skills. These underrepresented groups that we all have within our law firms, they're glaringly apparent. I see it every day with the clients that we work with, but our clients they want diversity, they want that shared experience, they want other perspectives, they want for us as their trusted advisors to see challenges, obstacles and opportunities from all different angles. So I think having that balance and bringing people that may not look like, you know, a lot of the leadership at our law firm, it's really important to bring in a different balance side of things to the leadership and management levels. It's so crucial to have that viable law firm that's gonna thrive in the future. And sadly, I think that this is a differentiator for most most law firms.

So I think as women, we're taught to be quiet, be polite and, you know, kind of to not overshadow anyone else. And I would say that my biggest piece of advice is not being afraid to use your voice and always advocating for yourself. One of my female colleagues who is a partner at her firm once told me that the most important conversations are the ones that are had when you're not in the room. So it's really important to make an impact, be memorable, demand respect and work to be a change agent. If you see something that you don't like or that's not working, don't be afraid to use your voice, stand up and you know, be the advocate for others, as well as for yourself.

Charlie: We welcome Anna Hedgepeth, Director of Business Development at Cranfill Sumner, who shares her perspectives and the power of strong communication. 

Anna: I love being a woman in professional services marketing. I think women bring a unique set of soft skills to the table, and as a woman, we can kind of embrace those qualities to help us build more authentic relationships and also to show empathy in certain situations. I know I've talked a lot before about having children and managing a professional career and I think it just gives you a different perspective that you can bring to the job.

So I know this sounds really simple. But the answer to me is communication. So much ties back to really, really good communication. I would challenge all firms to look at their communication methods, their channels and really ask themselves, how can they improve them? How are opportunities and messages being clearly communicated to everyone, is hearing the same thing or that is everyone getting the same opportunity and the same chance with how we're presenting opportunities within a firm.

First impressions do matter. My dad always told me this, but I think first impressions really do make a difference and have a vision of what you want to accomplish in your career and work towards it every day and tell people about it and don't be scared to have those hard conversations along the way. And I always tell women hard, doesn't always mean harsh.

Charlie:  Our final guest on today's episode discusses the importance of continued conversation to recognise areas for improvement within farm culture and how to build confidence in your role. We welcome Sarah Ryan, Director of Marketing and Business Development at Stark & Stark.

Sarah: Honestly, I've been quite lucky in my 10 years at my firm. You know, I've been supported in growth and encouraged along the way, actually a female partner once said to me “you know, you're never going to be ready for your next step and it's never going to feel like the right time and you just need to take it”  and you know, that was when I was contemplating taking a larger role in my department and leading. So, you know, I've been really lucky to have that encouragement and especially from females at the firm. Embracing equity: there's a lot of places to go with this. But you know, having an understanding of your true culture at the firm is important and I don't mean just what your mission statement is, but really the leaders need to have conversations with employees and other leaders as to what's important to them and what makes them happy because they'll, you know, at the end of the day, everyone will be much more successful like that. So having continued conversations about what people need to be successful, I think is where most of them need to start.

My advice for women entering the industry is really to do all things with confidence.You know, even when you're not feeling that way internally, you will find people will listen and follow you if you think and act as if you believe in yourself. And I think that that really goes a long way with leadership.

Charlie: Thank you to all of our guests for sharing their insights today and stay tuned for our next episode of CMO Series REPRESENTS where we are joined by a group of leading women to discuss the importance of holding your own and finding joy in your career.

You can subscribe to CMO Series RERESENTS via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts and Spotify.

Thanks for listening, and see you next time.