Charles: In the rational world of B2B professional services, advertising is often one of the least used marketing tools. In the Thomson Reuters State of the Global Legal Marketing and BD report, professional services marketers ranked advertising as one of the least effective marketing tactics. In fact, the most effective were thought leadership, social media, and web presence. Today we're diving deep into advertising and its application in professional services with Lee Grunnell, CMO at Womble Bond Dickinson UK, to understand if advertising is perhaps underused and misunderstood by professional services marketers. 

Charlie: The CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle. Passle makes thought leadership simple, scalable, and effective, so professional services firms can stay front of mind with their clients and prospects when it matters most. Find out more and request a demo at passle.net. Now back to the podcast.

Charles: We're going to jump right in and explore: is advertising being overlooked in professional services marketing? To get us started, Lee, why do you think marketers should rethink their priority when it comes to advertising?

Lee: Really simplistically, I think partly because so few people do. You know, it's the area that probably gives you the most opportunity to stand out and swim against the tide. But I think there's almost sort of four scales that I think about professional services on. So it's a market that is undifferentiated, predominantly rational, as you mentioned in your intro, and high consideration. So that means, as we know, most law firms do the same kind of thing in the same kind of way as other firms and the same for accountancy as well. It's predominantly rational in the sense that there is lots of information and facts and data out there. And it's high consideration in the sense that people spend a lot of time thinking about which firms to instruct, how they find firms, whether that's panel review processes, asking for recommendations, meetings, proposals, pitches, and so forth. But it's also what you'd call a credence service or a credence product in that it's difficult to assess the quality of a law firm unless you've worked with that firm. In some cases, even when you've worked with them, it's difficult to assess the quality of the advice until months or years after, depending how long a piece of work goes on. In that world, that undifferentiated, rational, high consideration, understandably, we default to providing more facts and information out there about ourselves. And then you end up, it's very easy to just end up blending into that sea of sameness. So what advertising does, I think, is it gives you an opportunity to—differentiation is difficult as we know—but our opportunity to really be distinctive in a market that's broadly very similar and applies to very clear category norms.

It's also one of those things specifically, I think, on that credence point where it's difficult. If someone's not worked with firm X, it's very difficult to get an objective benchmark of actually, is that firm any good or not. And what advertising does in our sort of industry is it almost acts as a proxy for quality. So it enhances perceptions of quality. So I think that's one of the really key reasons for me that it's so beneficial. I think the other two things that I'd say, there's that point that the majority of buyers of legal services at any one point, they're not actively looking to instruct a new firm. So the majority of people aren't actually in market. And what that advertising does and the long-lasting nature of it is it starts to build that awareness and build those memory structures. So when people are ready to instruct a firm in the future, you come to mind more easily. And the other thing that it does, I think it makes all of your other efforts more effective. So again, it's not a case of, it's not the one single answer, the silver bullet, but as part of a suite of activities, it performs a unique role?  Yeah, I think it probably does perform a unique role for all of those different reasons.

Charles: And that's a great point that our head of marketing actually he described to me is you want to be on someone's washing machine list. So the way he described it was not everyone needs a new washing machine but when their washing machine breaks you want to be top of their list. So I guess that's what you're trying to achieve with that and remain in front of mind. 

Lee: Yeah absolutely. There's lots of research that's out there about kind of B2B generally saying that, you know, the majority of firms that get appointed or instructed, whether that's IT suppliers or office furniture suppliers or law firms or actuarial or whatever it might be, they're already in the head of the buyer. They're already on that shortlist at the very start of that process. So yeah, how do you make sure you come to mind as early a point as possible and ideally you come to mind with some positive associations that does some of that work up front for you that all of your other marketing communications and BD efforts can build on. So yeah definitely.

Charles: So in this sea of sameness where it's important to be distinctive, what does good advertising in professional services look like? 

Lee: So I think there's…Probably three things that I would say, sort of three key features that I would imagine are broadly applicable to every industry, actually. I think the first thing is it has to get people's attention. If it doesn't get people's attention, then everything else is academic. And again, there's loads of research out there that shows a huge volume of advertising isn't effective because it doesn't get noticed and has no impact. There's that thing you've either got, you're going to have one of three impacts from any advertising campaign you run. There's the positive impact, there's a negative impact, and no impact. And actually, by far, the biggest danger is no impact rather than a negative one. So it has to get people's attention, first of all. Second, it has to be clearly from you so people notice it and they know it's you, and that's where you get into all that stuff about distinctive brand assets and brand codes and those things that signify, "Yes, this is one by one Dickinson," in our case. And then the third thing I think is that memorability. So again, going back to what we were just mentioning about the majority of people not being in the market at any one time, that memorability. So again, to use the terminology, you know, building and refreshing memory structures, it starts to get lodged in people's minds, so in the future, you come to mind easily and it's got those right associations. And again, why this is particularly valuable in the legal world, obviously, so much of instructing a law firm is about risk, you know, managing risk, reducing risk, the reputational risk of the individual person for instructing a firm on behalf of a business, the business reputation. Things that are familiar, things that come to mind easily, you know, that cognitive ease. As humans, we trust more than things that aren't familiar or things that are different or, you know, cognitive load. So again, I think that memorability is really, really important and why, again, another thing that makes this a really valuable tool for law firms.

Charles: So looking specifically at law firms and, I guess, professional services, what are the considerations or constraints that mean advertising for a law firm should be different than other industries?

Lee: I think this is a really interesting one, actually, because I think there's probably an argument that you can make that every industry will have its quirks and its nuances, rather than people often talk about B2B versus B2C. It's like, well, even in B2C, there are huge differences between industries and in B2B, there are huge differences. So I think the key question actually is understanding what are the conventions and the norms of the legal industry? And then it's which of those do you want to respect and adhere to versus which of those do you want to play with and challenge against? Because, again, it's about building that trust. It's an important thing instructing a law firm for a piece of work, particularly if it's a big M&A transaction or whatever. So there are some things that you definitely don't want to play against. You want people to trust you and take you seriously and think that you're competent and all that sort of stuff. But then it's, okay, some of those other things that maybe are more unusual that you want to push against, that whole thing about getting people's attention. We notice things that are different, so I think, yeah, absolutely, there are specific considerations, but I think there are specific considerations for every industry.

Charles: And in terms of that getting attention, have you noticed anything in the industry, another law firm perhaps that has done something that's caught your eye recently that you can give as an example?

Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So I think Addleshaw Goddard is doing some really interesting stuff, and again, that pulls a really good trick. It's clearly them, some of their recent advertising. I think for their in-house offering, a sort of fractional GC type offering. I think Mishcon de Reya consistently do some really interesting things. Again, it's always very bold and very striking. Again, it's that message about who they are. Irwin Mitchell, actually, I think, again, looking at that B2C piece, some of the TV advertising that they do, I think is really, really good. So yeah, there are definitely some firms doing some interesting things. Those are three that I'd encourage people to look at. I think EY in the accountancy world, they've recently branched out into some TV advertising as well. I mentioned at the start that one of the reasons to do it is that so few firms do. I do feel like people are beginning to catch on a little bit and are beginning to be a bit more confident rather than thinking it's something that just isn't right for legal services or professional services.

Charles: So one of the biggest challenges in any marketing effort for a professional service firm is buy-in. How would you recommend others approach getting buy-in for advertising from the stakeholders at the firm?

Lee: So I think there's a couple of things, actually. And this is something that I have been challenged on lots in the past. One is research. I'm a big believer in research, understanding how the market perceives you, what your profile's like, how that compares to other firms, all of that good market research. But also, yeah, that study of how does advertising work? Kind of just building up your own knowledge base? I think one of the biggest challenges, or two of the biggest challenges that I've encountered in the past, one is that thing of, oh, it's too broad brush. It's not targeted enough. It's all about being really, really targeted on particular clients. And again, there's some really good research, the LinkedIn B2B Institute, looking at how B2B brands grow. That's definitely worth looking at. There's some really interesting stuff there looking at UK financial services and insurance and retail banking. So really good kind of empirical evidence and examples that you can bring if you're getting challenged on it.

I think the other big challenge is always, oh, it's really expensive. And I think it's that classic, the difference between cost and value. Because while an advertising campaign may be expensive in absolute terms when you look at just the sum of money involved. I think it's actually probably one of the best value activities that you can do. If you imagine you're a firm with 10 offices in the UK and 200 partners and four business groups... A national advertising campaign is probably the only thing you're going to do that stretches across every single part of the business. It will benefit every office, every practice group, every team, every partner. So when you actually look at the, you know, you spread that cost across every part of the business, suddenly it doesn't seem so expensive and it seems actually pretty good value for money. And also, going back to some of the things we were saying at the start, that actually how long the effects of a good advertising campaign last, if you're regularly topping it up, they're incredibly long-lasting, stretching over years. And the way that they help make all of your other activities more effective, again, it's remarkably good value. And I think those are the two biggest challenges. And I think it's that building up that evidence bank with some of the research that's out there and actually how you think about the cost of some of these things, but more in a value-based sense. 

Charles: So you've got the campaign signed off, you've got the buy-in from showing the folks the research and justifying the cost. How do you measure the impact of a campaign and what sort of results are you looking for? Are there any specifics you can share of how marketers can measure the impact of something like an advertising campaign? 

Lee: Yeah, absolutely. So I think there's a couple of different ways of looking at it. I think one is kind of coming back to the brief. What are the objectives that you're setting? So when we're scoping out any campaign, we will always kind of have, okay, what's the one single commercial objective here? And then what are, you know, two max three sort of supporting objectives. So for us, for an advertising campaign, we would be sort of basing this on the sort of annual brand tracking research that we do. So it might be increasing awareness from X to Y based on the feedback that we're getting, increasing consideration amongst HR directors for that one commercial objective. And then, you know, those supporting pieces might be relating to general sort of perception or some behavior change that you want to drive internally or whatever it might be. And to an extent, it's almost OK when you come to do the measurement, either your regular annual brand tracking research, you know, have those metrics shifted that you were looking for or not. You may go and do an interim piece of research at the end of the campaign to see if that's been shifted. So that's kind of almost the big picture stuff. I think then it's almost, so we have a KPI dashboard that we run every quarter that has a mix of sort of business performance related metrics, sort of marketing comms related metrics. BD metrics and what have you. So it's kind of looking okay are you seeing shifts in in those key metrics that you measure almost some of those things that are those sort of leading indicators that you know, okay if we improve metrics a b and c we know that the revenue and profit will follow in due course and then ultimately it is that revenue and profit sort of trend is that sort of thing it's  that moving in the right direction so I think yeah there'll be the specific objective that you set you kind of either measure through your you know and your brand tracking and then you know those KPIs that you that you monitor that should be you know will be specific to this particular market that you're in how people buy you know those sorts of things. 

Charles: And is it easier or harder than tracking other campaigns you run or the same? 

Lee: It probably is slightly harder because the impact is intended to be slightly sort of longer term. So it's that one of the analogies that people often use is, you know, it's about watering the plant as well as picking the fruit, you know, trying to get that long and short balance. So we typically will look at each year having our big mass market advertising campaign that is very much focused on awareness, brand recognition, and then, okay, where are we having our more targeted campaigns? And the objectives that we set for those more targeted campaigns are inevitably a little bit, shorter where we'd expect to see results sort of more quickly versus that longer term piece so yeah it can be a little bit trickier I think that main thing is just being really clear about what the objective is and then you know setting out at the start okay how are we going to measure if this objective has been met. 

Charles: Yeah I think that's that's the important thing isn't it you you need to set that before you start anything then you know which way the ship is heading yeah 

Lee: Yeah, exactly. 

Charles: We are now at the point in the podcast where we're going to jump into the quickfire round. So Lee, I'm going to ask you some questions and it's the first things that pop into your head and this is really to help our listeners get to know you a little bit better. So if you're ready, we'll jump right in.

Lee: Go for it.

Charles: So the first question is, what are you reading or listening to at the moment? 

Lee: I am currently reading The Bee Sting by Paul Murray, which is very good. About 100 pages in and actually before so the book I read before that was Babel by RF Kuang which I would highly recommend to everyone. It's absolutely magnificent. So, that's the reading. What am I listening to? I spend every couple of months quite a lot of time in the car doing a journey from north to south. My kind of go-to podcasts at the moment are Origin Story which is Dorian Lynskey and Ian Dunt, and then The Rest is History which is particularly good as well. So, music. Actually, we've had quite a good concert run recently. There was a Suede Manic Street Preachers double header in Leeds the other week and Janelle Monáe in Manchester. So, yeah, getting a good dose of music as well.

Charles: Oh, don't forget your trip to Cardiff.

Lee: Well, unfortunately, I was too ill to make it.

Charles: Oh, no. 

Lee: Yeah, I know. I don't know if you remember the Southwest sort of water virus bug thing. I got that. So, yeah, our tickets for Bruce Springsteen went sadly unused.

Charles: Yeah. What is one thing you couldn't live without in your working life?

Lee: I would say my Star Wars Cross pen, which I know sounds very bizarre when you say it out loud. Cross are a brand of pen, and they will occasionally do a sort of collaboration range. They did a Star Wars range recently. So, I have a Cross pen with a Darth Vader motif on it, one with a Han Solo motif. I am one of those people where I write everything out by hand before typing it up and putting it on slides. If I didn't have those, I'd feel a bit bereft.

Charles: Brilliant. What's your favourite way to unwind?

Lee: I think music would be a big one. Concerts definitely. This is really sad, isn't it? I am an advocate of the gym. Unfortunately, being the vintage that I am, regular exercise is far more important now than it was when I was younger. So, yeah, plenty of exercise and lots of live music. A moderate alcohol intake, a good bottle of wine with dinner, is always to be encouraged.

Charles: Are there any habits that you think have helped you, particularly in your career?

Lee: Hunger to learn. I like learning about anything, really. From a work perspective, the willingness to look outside of professional services and see what's happening in the wider world of marketing and BD. What are the top marketing professors writing about? What is the latest research from the world of B2C or other B2B industries? I hope I'm relatively open-minded in seeking that stuff out, talking to people in different industries, and working out what that means for professional services. That curiosity and hunger to learn has probably stood me in good stead.

Charles: Yeah, I really like that. Well, to round us off, we like to finish all of our podcasts in the same way, and that's by asking our guests for one tip. What's your one tip for those at professional services firms thinking about implementing advertising as part of their marketing mix?

Lee: Research, definitely. Good qualitative research, good quantitative research, building a solid evidence base for why you want to run the advertising campaign based on what the market actually says about you. That's the number one thing I would say. Talking in general working in law firms, people deal in evidence and precedent and case law all the time. Having your own evidence bank is really important. It's not just me, Lee, saying we should do this because I've woken up one morning and decided it would be cool. It's because of the current state of our brand awareness or our perception vis-a-vis competitors or this particular market we want to be in. This is what the research says about how those people find and choose firms. Being able to present all of that will definitely help things.

Charles: Yeah, and I imagine, particularly working with lawyers, having some evidence and research to back things up probably sits quite well with them.

Lee: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's the voice of the client and of the market. It's the one voice that can't be challenged or denied.

Charles: Yeah. Well, Lee, thanks for coming on today. I think you make a very compelling case for why advertising needs to have a part in law firm marketing. Thanks again for coming on and sharing your insight.

Lee: No, absolute pleasure. Thanks, Charles.