Will: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series podcast, where we discuss all things marketing and business development. My name is Will Eke and today we're diving into the evolving role of the Chief Marketing Officer, and actually the impact of a client-shaped mindset.

Charlie: The CMO Series Podcast is brought to you by Passle. Passle makes thought leadership simple, scalable, and effective, so professional services firms can stay front of mind with their clients and prospects when it matters most. Find out more and request a demo at passle.net. Now, back to the podcast.

Will: Absolutely thrilled to have Laura Ottley the Chief Marketing Officer at Addleshaw Goddard with us. Laura joined Addleshaw Goddard in 2020 and has since been really instrumental in reshaping their approach to client engagement the episode today we're going to explore laura's journey to leadership how she's driven these sort of client-centric strategies and we're going to try and delve into some of the creative campaigns that have really set AG apart. Lots of awards I'm sure we're going to go into with Laura we also wanted to discuss a bit more on how the focus on being client-shaped has really sort of transformed both the external impact and the internal team dynamics. So, Laura, big intro but absolutely thrilled to have you on, welcome!

Laura: Yeah thanks for the big intro, love that.

Will: I think for our listeners it will be really really interesting to know how you sort of got to where you are at Addleshaw Goddard if you can give us a brief overview of your career path and how that came about that would be brilliant.

Laura: I'll try not to bore you going into too much detail on my 25 years of how I've got here but I guess first of all I did languages and politics at uni and decided that I wanted a career in marketing when I graduated. And it was tough. It was really difficult finding a job in marketing back in the early 2000s. You know, there weren't a lot of options. And so I took a job in the defense industry and didn't think it was something that I'd be particularly interested in. I absolutely fell in love with it. We were selling flight simulators, weapon simulators, all that sort of stuff. And I travelled the world selling to armed forces and other defense manufacturers. And my job, I guess, was I was responsible for… Responding to pitches and tenders that we were that we were going after organising sort of our presence at trade shows and events that we'd be at and kind of general mark on so super super varied and very full service. I guess under that kind of marketing mix and I think probably the difference was that I started off working under a sales director rather than a marketing director, and for anyone that's worked under sales directors obviously all they care about really is the revenue so everything that I did in marketing because we were quite a small company you kind of had to show that it was generating sales and that it was helping benefit our customers because otherwise I was like why are we doing it so I think from my perspective that really informed my mindset and I didn't really realise that until I then moved into law where they were like gosh you're really salesy and I was thinking I don't think I am particularly salesy because in comparison to the sales team, I felt very much a marketing person. But then I realised in comparison to a lot of other marketing people, I guess I had been more focused on customers and making sure that we were delivering revenue. So I did five years doing that, which was amazing. I learned so much and then moved to Evershed Sutherland, a law firm. And I spent 14 years working at Eversheds and I worked in lots of different roles there. I had, you know, great privilege of moving from different roles and progressing through the kind of career ladder there where I joined, first of all, as senior international BD manager, which was all around helping Eversheds build its overseas network and helping build the brand of Eversheds around the world. I then moved to a senior practice group, BD role, eventually to then head of business development, and then finally made it to deputy marketing director there. And I guess I also had to fit in a couple of maternity leaves as well, because I've got two boys who are now 15 and 13. So I managed to get all that done in 14 years, which was pretty awesome.

Loved it there, and then an opportunity presented itself here at Addleshaw Goddard four years ago right during the pandemic and I joined here as marketing director because they I guess were particularly interested in my skills of how I built the brand overseas and how we'd kind of got that client engagement around the world and they were particularly looking for someone with a track record of large team management which is something obviously I'd had quite a lot of experience in. And then two years ago, I think it was just over two years ago, I was asked to join the board here and got promoted to Chief Marketing Officer because they really wanted someone on the board that was going to sort of put a client sort of centric view to everything we do as a business. And I now manage a team. I mean, when I joined, it was a team of 45. And now we're a team of over 90 people around the world. So big difference in the four years I've been here.

Will: Wow. yeah just taking all that in that's a that's a brilliant journey and to your point as as the CMO now, congratulations, but it sounds like you've got that often when I speak to CMOs they've either come from the marketing or BD background you know and or they've bolted one of them on if that makes sense.

Laura: It does, yeah.

Will: You're sort of the CMO's dream where everything that's linked to marketing has to have some sort of tangible outcome which is what everyone wants and and tell Well, tell us a bit more about, so when you joined Addleshaw Goddard, as you say, it was a pandemic, it was 2020. Did you, and it was a tricky time for everyone globally, did you have sort of priorities did you have goals right from the start where you thought I'm gonna try and change this in the first year and then this is a more of a long-term goal?

Laura: Yeah I mean, I think it evolved over time as you'd expect it to but the first observation i had really was that when I started sort of interviewing the partners and really understanding what business is all about I was really amazed at the type of work that we were doing as a firm and these amazing FTSE clients that Addleshaw’s has and I was thinking you know I've been in legal industry for you know 14 years at that point I was like I haven't heard that much about the firm it's quite a modest firm and it's lovely because it's sort of humble and you know we don't brag but ultimately if you don't talk about what you're doing it's very difficult for other clients to know what they could be instructing you on and the sorts of things that we could be helping clients with so for me it was all about the fact that we needed to raise the profile of the firm externally but also that we needed to make sure that our partners were more confident having better conversations with clients and really thinking about how we develop those relationships you know and cross sell more and I think at the time the firm had just opened up offices in Germany and in France. And so we're still seen as quite a UK centric firm. So there was quite a lot to do to really help the partners and the market really understand how we can support clients around the world. And they were all things that I'd had experience in both my jobs beforehand doing. So I felt that I could kind of do a lot to help adults understand where I needed to make some changes and what we needed to invest in. So I guess they were sort of the top priorities that I had. We had this kind of brand proposition of quality, imagination and impact, which I thought was a really nifty brand proposition. But then I wasn't really seeing it being lived and breathed in everything that we were doing. It's just sort of a slogan. And the danger with anything where it's just sort of a bit slogany is it's not taken really seriously. And the risk is that then clients don't really buy into it or believe in it. So I guess the first thing I really worked hard on was pushing this more imagination, more impact, and making sure that everything we did for clients was seen in kind of slightly more innovative way. And, you know, we started with looking at the marketing and making sure that everything we did was slightly more imaginative. And that, you know, it's not going completely wacky and crazy, but it was just twists on things. And then always thinking about what's the impact. It's all very well doing this, but if there's no benefit to the client then there's no point to what we're doing so every time a partner said well I'd like to promote this you'd be like that's great how can we do that in a slightly different way and if we do do that what difference is that going to make to the client because that's the bit that we're going to focus on. So they were the bits that I guess I really honed in on making sure that we push this more imagination more impact which was sort of linked to the fact that just before I joined, the FT had awarded Addleshaw's with this expression that we were, you know, one of the most client-shaped law firms in Europe, which was an amazing accolade. But if I was truthful, I wasn't really seeing it being lived and breathed everywhere throughout the business. And the risk of that, of course, is that then we're not as client-shaped as maybe clients would want us to be. And being client-shaped for me was about thinking how to do things in a slightly different way and how you think about the impact so to me the two were really closely linked and so then I pushed hard to say right we just need to really think about how we are delivering more imagination more impact i.e being more client-shaped for our clients in everything we do so I started with my team and then then sort of focused then on the rest of the business.

Will: It's fascinating. Am I right in thinking that, you know, the marketing team wasn't particularly, what's the word to say, mature Addleshaw Goddard? 

Laura: Yeah, that's right.

Will: So again, you know, realising this significance of being client-share, you got the award, but actually you want to live and breathe it. You know, how did you sort of implement that throughout the firm? I suppose it's a dual thing. You could actually get marketing on the mat whilst you were doing it. Can you elaborate a bit more on that? 

Laura: Yeah, no, of course I can. And you're right, you know, when I joined, they've been through a number of changes in leadership. And I guess a big part of my job was to create a sense of identity and purpose and what we all stood for. So the first thing I did was prioritise 10 areas that I felt would really help the team understand what we were prioritising. But more importantly, I then presented it to all the partners. So we did, you know, at that point, it was all Zoom calls because, you know, there was nothing face to face. Where I said to the partners these are the 10 priority areas that we're going to focus on which are going to help grow the business and help grow the brand. So I was really transparent really clear I then changed our the way we report to the board on those 10 projects and effectively said this is what I'm doing what the team are doing to make sure that we are developing the business and the brand so everyone then had a kind of oh okay so I'm not just you know the BD manager for corporate and commercial. I'm also looking at how we develop the brand in the city or, you know, they understood that they had to be part of a project, not just, you know, your actual function. And then I brought in specialists, you know, we were, we were missing quite a lot of specialist areas. So, you know, it sounds obvious, but, you know, we were missing a really clear focused key account program. You know, we had bits of it, but it was, it was, you know, it was nothing kind of structured as what we put in clear roles for client relationship partners made sure that we had proper associates who were responsible for developing those client relationships. I aligned my team to those accounts we sort of were doing client feedback but in a quite sporadic way then we kind of turned that into a kind of formalised program where we kind of actively listen to our top 100 clients. I set up a client advisory panel where we meet with our top clients sort of three times a year where we share with them our you know what we're thinking of doing as a business and as a team and then they have an opportunity to give their thoughts as to whether that's the right sort of strategy or not and hearing from our clients really then allowed me to then go back to the partners and go look this is what they're saying about us and these are the things that they think we could do better so having their voice rather than it just be me saying this is where we could change things was quite helpful. And then we didn't have an alumni program so again we developed an alumni program and helped people who were leaving AG and moving into client organisations we sort of set them up with a kind of 100 day program and then sort of you know help them within their their new roles at the clients again because i saw this as a great opportunity to make sure that we were really you know supporting those people going into, you know, potentially roles where they could instruct AG at some other point. So they were the sorts of things that I started to think about. And I realized that that was more than just my team. It was also about, you know, the wider business.

Will: You've touched upon some of it there, Laura, and you were winning awards even when you just joined, when you had the full impact, which is quite amazing. You've also launched some real notable campaigns recently over the last few years. Can you delve into and describe one or two of those in a bit more detail for everyone?

Laura: Yeah, I'm really lucky. I've got a really creative head of marketing. Brian McCready, who loves the challenge around being more imaginative and more impactful. He lives and breathes it in everything he creates and you know my job really has been to really support him with some of his creative ideas and get the rest of the business brought into it. So we've just looked at doing things you know in a slightly different way so whether that be events that we put on for in-house counsel that you know would traditionally be updates to the law you know here's another update on data protection or employment you know instead changing that around and doing it in a kind of really creative storytelling way so it's super practical and in a fun way so then clients want to come to these events because they're fun they're not just boring legal updates. Then we brought clients in to talk to them about the sorts of topics that they would find interesting we make sure that we constantly survey our clients to find out what they think and we've now had over a thousand people at these types of events so that really helped us win awards with that creative style of event. The other thing we did was rather than just do yet another thought leadership report which most of us in marketing spend quite a lot of time doing we decided to do the report but rather than present it back in a kind of linear fashion with loads of words, we brought it to life with a music video and I can't tell you how many views that got on LinkedIn. It was our most liked post that we've ever done. Clients loved it because it was different and it was different to what they're used to it was all around you know how GCs are viewed in the boardroom and so our partners were then able to take that piece of thought leadership but also share the video with our clients and again it's just doing things with slightly more imagination than just sending out yet another document so that is just another example of the sorts of things that we're doing. And you know look working in a law firm it's it's challenging right to be super creative you know often we're selling to other lawyers or we're selling to the boardroom so trying to do something you know too crazy and wacky is never going to be the answer but there is a way to make things you know we're all humans we all want to be have something that's a bit more interesting in our lives to to click on and read and view so we've just tried to do things in a slightly different way make our events a bit more impactful choosing venues that are a bit more you know the sorts of places that people would want to come to and tell their friends that they've been to. You know it's harder and harder to get people to come through the door for events so you've got to make your content be presented in an interesting way and you've got to choose venues that are going to entice people to come spend time with you.

Will: Can't believe you got Liam Gallagher to sing on your music video.

Laura: I mean it's all about the powers of persuasion, Will. If only.

Will: I mean it sounds yeah like you guys are really pushing the boundaries on the creativity side what and I know this is this is quite hard to sometimes to quantify but what has been the impact of some of those you know very creative campaigns and I'm not just talking about with the clients you know what's the impact been with your team what's the impact been with other stakeholders around Addleshaw as well as the clients?

Laura:  I mean as you know it's always difficult to show impact of this sort of thing on how it generates sales, right you know it's very difficult to say someone's clicked on a report and as a result it's going to instruct you but we all know that it all creates a sense of momentum and there has definitely been momentum for Addleshaw Goddard. I think for me the team have been really motivated to be challenged to work on something a bit more creative they've loved that and we've entered in a number of awards so we won awards at the b2b marketing awards and we won I think probably my personal highlight last year was we won marketing team of the year at marketing week which you know is an industry publication that is full of consumer brands and you know we took a table there and I took along you know you know members different members of the team to that event to celebrate something around some really big brands, you know Guinnesses, Diageo, Boots, you know massive… Cadburys… you know big brands that all of us when we think about marketing probably think oh they these guys do loads of advertising. When we won marketing team of the year it just I can't tell you how proud we all were it was you know a fun night it was great for the team to see that you know you can do something creative and fun in what is quite a sensible and serious and let's face it traditional industry so I think in a way being part of those and going for those awards has massively motivated the team and then of course then that gives confidence to the partners that when we're suggesting doing things slightly differently they can see that this is an award-winning team this is a team that are you know the other industries are viewing as creative and compelling so they're taking our advice.This year we won you know the most traditional award you can win but high profile which was law firm of the year from the lawyer and you know it was a combination of all the things that we talked about all the things that we're doing differently and this sense of momentum that we are building in the marketplace of doing things slightly differently for our clients and I think all of that has made the partnership understand that what we do has value with our clients and we've just got to keep going at it.

Will: And let's be honest, all lawyers like a good trophy, right, as well.

Laura: They love it. They love it. So to be honest, winning Law Firm of the Year, what's not to love? I mean, also we got to meet Claudia Winkleman. So, you know, that was fun too. 

Will: My wife's favourite, yeah. You haven't even touched upon the retention aspect of that because obviously you're building a great team and then they're doing stuff out of the ordinary, outside of the industry. There's a huge retention piece, which is absolutely brilliant. sounds like you know you it's an unbelievable place to work it's going to delve into a few questions that have got nothing to do nothing to do with the topic we're actually here for so I'm going to ask you to start with what are you listening to or reading in terms of old school books at the moment?

Laura: Okay well I'm not very good at reading old school books truth be told but what I can tell you is I'm currently listening to a lot of Oasis I'm reminding myself of the of all their hits from sort of 25 years ago because I was one of the lucky people that managed to get a ticket a couple of weeks ago for next summer and so I just kind of want to remind myself of all the songs I used to listen to 25 years ago so yeah I'm more of a music listener in the morning.

Will: There we go I don't think I've ever listened to Oasis in the morning I always it always reminds me of Friday night Stellar in hand. Well done on getting those tickets I know they're pretty hard to get hold of. Cool, what was your first job?

Laura: You can probably tell by the fact that I said I prefer listening to music my first job actually was working at WH Smith's in the music department you know back in the days when people actually bought CDs and cassettes so I loved it it was amazing working in the music department and people coming in and you know asking you for something on their birthday list or whatever it was brilliant fun great fun.

Will: Really, I'm getting nostalgic now, back to the CD-buying days and Oasis. Personally and professionally, what's one piece of technology that you can't now live without?

Laura: I mean, I want to say something really thoughtful, but the truth is I can't live without my phone. Anyone who knows me knows I'm utterly, utterly addicted to my iPhone. My usage is incredibly high. I'm addicted to my emails. You can always get a hold of me whenever you need. Addicted to the socials yeah very much my iPhone which I say with great shame.

Will: You're the other way around, you've got you've got the kids telling you to get off the phone.

Laura: That's exactly what it is. 

Will: What's a small habit you have that you think could help others? Probably not the iPhone one. 

Laura: Yeah, definitely not the iPhone one. So I guess a couple of things. First of all, people always say that I'm really positive. And no matter how I'm feeling, it is true that I always really try to be really positive. Because I definitely find that if you're really positive, people just naturally want to be around you, naturally want to spend time with you and you kind of

then get what you need from them because, they then want to be around positive people so you know no matter how you're feeling I guess I really encourage you to you know put that smile on and be positive because it is amazing how if you give that to someone they then give you back loads that's definitely my experience. I guess the other thing I suppose is linked a little bit to my iPhone I'm super responsive so people always know that I'm onto it. I might not have the answer, but they'll know that I'll be working on it. I'll get back to them.

I'll manage the expectations of it, but I will always respond. And I think that people are a lot happier if they know that someone's doing something about even if it's not immediate, they know it's being taken care of. So I always encourage my team to just respond and just say, leave it with me. I'll get back to you. And you don't need to always go back with the answer straight away but at least acknowledge it at least that person knows that you're onto it so I guess that's two things really I've cheated there but yeah they're my two top tips.

Will: No, it's really good advice. I had that conversation with a team member the other day as well. It's that sort of holding email, but just telling your clients that we are thinking of you still and we're going to, you know, don't give them the answer straight away. Your optimism and your happiness to really shine through from our previous conversations. There is that book that I've got in front of me actually called Learned Optimism. I don't know if you've read that. You probably don't need to.

Laura: Too busy listening to music.

Will: Yeah, you don't need to read the book. You can write your own one. But it's, yeah, the actual author's described as the author of authentic happiness and how to change your mind and life. But there we go. As we say, you don't need it. Where is your favourite place to visit and why?

Laura:  I mean generally anywhere with a beach and a cocktail would be my happy place so I'm not that specific but in terms of cities I've been really really lucky I've travelled loads in my life but I think probably the place that I would say is my favourite… I'm half French I've got a Parisian mother so I've got a lot of family and friends in Paris and I was lucky to spend part of my year abroad at university there as well and I guess I'm kind of sentimental every time I see that Eiffel Tower glittering away I sort of fall in love with the city every time and I was lucky to go this summer for the Olympics which was great fun and I just think what's not to love it's beautiful the architecture's awesome the food's great and I love all the little cute shops where I can spend lots of money so for me I suppose I'd say Paris is probably my happy place.

Will: I'd have to agree with that. We took the kids there in February this year and I fell in love with it. I went there when I was much younger and I didn't really enjoy it as much. I think it was probably because I was with my parents. But this time, absolutely. The Eiffel Tower looked bigger. The food, everything was just unbelievable. The kids absolutely loved it. So I lived it through them.

Laura: Oh, amazing. 

Will: What a great place, Paris. The last question I'm going to ask you. Sure. I'm sure people will be really wanting to know this, but what what's your one piece of advice or your top piece of advice for other you know your peers other CMOs looking to build a more client-shaped approach and also you know hang on to their team and build a really happy and successful team in marketing. 

Laura: There's lots in that, and I think it's not just one thing for me it's multiple things one I'm a massive believer that we're all in it together. I mean people say that you've got to live and breathe it and I do I you know feel like mama bear for my team I will take anything on their behalf and I think it's my job to inspire my team they can't be inspired on their own so I have to lead from the front on that they see me challenging the business in a thoughtful way and see me pushing the boundaries but also know when to stop you know if it's too much and we've got to deliver a great service and you know keep delivering for our partners and our clients so I think I do lead from the front on that. I think the other thing that I've been really lucky at here at Addleshaw’s, and I would definitely recommend to other CMOs or aspiring CMOs, is I'm part of a really strong leadership team here with my chief people officer and my CFO as well. And I work also with the General Counsel, so the office of General counsel and risk and all of us work together with our managing partner and I have to say I don't think I could have done what I've been able to achieve here if they'd not all been brought in and supported me on why I was doing it I've always felt supported I feel like I brought them in into the journey kind of got their buy into it and so as a result I don't feel like I've been fighting those battles you know which I know some people do have but I think just getting their buy-in and kind of showing them what I think good looks like has meant that I haven't had to fight every step of the way that you know most of the time everyone's been super supportive and gone yeah that will make sense so I think making sure you're part of a leadership team where you feel valued and that you give something to them and they'll give something to you I guess it starts off with that piece of advice I gave at the beginning I think feel positive to them they'll be positive back to you and that's definitely been my reflection really and I know I've succeeded far better because I haven't had to do it all alone I've been part of something a bit bigger than me and that just I don't know it's all part of being part of a collaborative environment at work I suppose and I think the other thing is I really listen to what our clients tell us you know I do a lot of client feedback personally myself and I read every single piece of client feedback that this firm does, even if I'm not done the interview.

And I make sure that we act on that feedback every single time. And I think, you know, sometimes I think, oh, it's another 10 client feedback reports I've got to read at the end of the day. But I know if I don't do it, we won't make the changes that are needed for us as a business. So I've been quite relentless on that. So I'm not sure I've given you one top tip there, given you multiple, but I guess all of that combined I think has helped me get to be where I've been here.

Will: Laura it's absolutely fascinating to listen to and well I'm going to thank you on behalf of all of our listeners as well because there's so much brilliant advice in there and I'm sure lots of inspiration for as you say future CMOs and CMOs that… maybe a bit of envy from other CMOs that are out there as well… but thank you so much for your time and thank you for your really candid and brilliant advice.

Laura: Thank you thanks for the opportunity and I guess my final bit was be yourself I probably have waited too long to be myself so for those people who are aspiring CMOs, back yourself you can do it I probably should have backed myself sooner so just thought I'd add that in as well.

Will: One last bit of golden nuggets there, thank you so much.

Laura: Cheers, Will.

Will: Thanks, Laura.