Charlie: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series podcast, where we talk all things marketing and business development in professional services. I'm Charlie Knight, and today we're joined by someone who spent his career helping professionals build better, more meaningful relationships without the awkwardness. Jason Levin is the author of Relationships to Infinity, a business development coach to law firms across the US, and a former brand marketer for Unilever. So he really knows how to turn human connection into real business impact.

In this episode, Jason will share practical advice for CMOs and BD leaders looking to help their lawyers connect more authentically with clients, unlock cross-selling opportunities, and build relationships that last.

This episode is brought to you by CrossPitch AI, the new cross-selling tool from Passle. Cross-selling should be the easiest way for law firms to grow, but most firms struggle. Why? Lack of awareness, lack of trust, and frankly, fear of selling. The result? Miss revenue. CrossPitch AI fixes that. It breaks down silos, helps professionals connect, and delivers timely, relevant insights to the right people. Inside the firm and out. There's no heavy rollout. Just switch it on and try it today. Head to crosspitch.ai to book your demo and make cross-selling happen. Now, back to the podcast. 

Welcome, Jason.

Jason: Thank you, Charlie. It's great to be here.

Charlie: Excellent. It was so good to have you here. I know we talked a while ago, so it's great to finally have you on the podcast. So, Jason, just to kick us off, for those who don't know your work, who do you help and what's the core of what you do with law firms?

Jason: Sure. So Ready, Set, Launch was founded with the idea that if we took Unilevers and other consumer goods, principles to professional services, what would that look like? And so I work with law firms to build internal trust between practice groups, between partners, so that they can actually build business and grow, and actually execute on the business plans they develop.

Charlie: Excellent. And you've worked closely with GCs throughout your career. What are they really looking for from law firms. And I guess, why do so many lawyers still miss the mark?

Jason: You know, you're hitting on something that's just really important. I'm a coach with the Association of Corporate Counsel. I'm a speaker at their annual meetings. And often when you hear CMOs talk about the importance of the voice of the client, and I totally agree that's really important, It's important to have their perspective at every course of the client acquisition journey within a law firm. And I think what law firms and partners are, it's almost like there's this lost in translation because the role of the chief legal officer of the general counsel has significantly evolved over the last 15 years, where now internally, the GC and the COO is now a strategic advisor within the C-suite, to the CEO, to the chief financial officer, to the board. 

And so often what they're looking for really are very foundational things. Does my attorney really care about my business? Does my attorney really care about me, both my people within my group, as well as me personally? And I think the disconnect is that when you're in a law firm, it's hard to continually think about the other person's perspective being the GC. So you really have that mismatch that's taking place where GCs are really looking for a business advisor, a strategic advisor, and getting law firm partners and practice groups to deliver these business solutions within the legal work that they do. And so it's a continual translate, retranslate, interpret, reinterpret.

Charlie:  Yeah. So what you're saying is, so GCs, they really want to know that their law firm partners, that they care about them, that they care about their business,that they know what challenges they're facing and they're kind of there to be on their side. So I suppose thinking about that. You know, you've often talked about lawyers needing to focus on building relationships and they can do that without the ick. So what does that look like in action and how can CMOs help make that easier for them to do it?

Jason: Yeah, you know, there's all this ick in and around using words like sales or networking and any of those kinds of things, which is entirely normal. I think the ick comes from just being human and at the same time also understanding the importance of internal collaboration, that your fellow partner within your own practice group is a source of opportunity and an opportunity to build a relationship.

Someone that might be a floor above you in a different practice group that is providing complimentary services to you is an opportunity to collaborate. And there's this normal human emotion that we feel the ick that we don't want to bother others. We perceive others as busy. And we're not initiating those opportunities because of this self-talk that's in our head that's really holding us back. And then additionally, what's also happening is that we're not listening to what's going on in the market and fully listening to what's going on in our clients. And so we're missing opportunities to leverage all this great work that firms are doing in client feedback interviews to reinforce the great work that's also happening. So there's a real human component to all of this that's really hard.

Charlie: Yeah. And like you say, there's obviously a very clear disconnect. And, you know, cross-selling is still a huge missed opportunity in law firms, as we know. So I guess aside from that kind of human element of the ick and not wanting to bother other folks, what else is holding cross-selling back in firms? And what's one step a CMO could take today to help their lawyers start to unlock it?

Jason: You know, you're hitting on something that's really important. It's something that I even saw when I was working at Unilever. And the running joke was that only if Unilever knew what Unilever knew. And I think the same thing goes for practice groups and partners within practice groups. I think a real opportunity is how can you build better trust between partners and between practice group leads and between the internal leaders of the firm. And I think the opportunity is not only around what is it that they share in common, but the values they share in providing service to their clients. I think that what I've seen is that oftentimes there's a lack of trust that another practice group would come in or someone would come in and not deliver what they think could they deliver. And at the same time, I think because partners are, you know, and this is a hard part of being a partner in a law firm, is that you're so focused on delivering work to your clients that not all the time do you have a full understanding of what the entire firm does and what your practice groups do. And so it's hard to get that full scope all the time if you're a law firm partner.

 And so really, this is an opportunity for the Chief Marketing Officer to be the dot connector, the historian, the storyteller. And so what we're really talking about is, OK, how can CMOs with consistency continue to provide? Well, here's an industry trend we're noticing. This is an opportunity for both you and this other practice group to solve that problem. And so CMOs with a level of consistency can continue to provide these bite-sized opportunities that can remind partners and practice groups of where their highest, best opportunities are for cross-selling.

Charlie: Yeah, that makes sense. So it's really about kind of finding ways to build that trust between professionals and that awareness that you talked about, you know, for your firm's kind of full service offering, isn't it? And, and, making folks aware of what's really on offer and who can deliver that.

Jason: Yeah. And trust comes in so many different layers and different levels. I think too often we think about trust just as, well, you do what you say you're going to do. And one of the things that I talk about in my book is that there are higher orders of trust where actually listening is a really important component to trust. And frankly, the practice groups and the law firm partners that do really well are the ones that outlisten their competition. And they also outlisten internally when they're talking to their peers to really understand the other person's perspective. 

Charlie: Absolutely. So it's listening to what the clients need, but also listening to your internal professionals and colleagues as well. You talk about in your book as well, Jason, about dormant and weak ties and those connections that lawyers already have, but often overlook. How can firms bring those back into focus? And I guess, how have you seen this kind of work in practice?

Jason: You know, Charlie, this is so foundational because when we talk about dormant and weak ties, this is the key point to your network. If, and I continue to say this, if we look at the network theory, then our networking activities would actually change. And if you look at network theory, where dormant ties are the people you lose touch with, weak ties are the people that you have an acquaintance level or you know casually, right? And if you focus on the people that you already have interacted with, that you've already trusted, that already know you, then you have a greater opportunity to reconnect with them and better understand the work that they're doing. So the way that I've seen this in practice is that what you'll see in certain law firms is that under the chief marketing officer, they also might have the alumni relations function. They might have a career coaching function. And in reality. Dormant Ties is really about getting the people that have already worked at your law firm and they've moved on to somewhere else, likely in-house, to remind those alumni that you're still around. And so it's this real partnership between the CMO, practice groups. Alumni relations, and the career coaches to remind partners and doing different types of events and connection so that you might have several alums of your organization in-house that already know the value of your work. And so in action, the CMO, again, can be that dot connector between these different functions to create these authentic connections. And then that facilitates cross-selling.

Charlie: Yeah, it makes total sense. And I think there's a nice part in your book where I think it was a relative of yours said that it's easier to keep friendships and, you know, nurture relationships than it is to create new friends. 

Jason: It is. And even, you know, as someone that worked for Unilever, my MBAs in brand management, I'm a student of consumer behavior. If you look at all the large consumer goods organizations, what they're trying to do is sell more of their product to their current customers. And all the social science on consumer behavior shows that it is much easier to sell more to a current client than to acquire a new one. And so this whole notion of cross-selling is just so important. And given the fact that law firms are really in the relationship business, then to maintain all of the relationships that they have is a huge opportunity for them. And that's why dormant and weak ties are so important. And that's why it's so important that they maintain a healthy alumni relations function because there are so many associates and partners and folks that, for whatever reason. Go on to a place that you know, could be in-house or wherever. And that's a wonderful source of referrals for the law firm. So yes, it's much better to, the social science says it, keeping in touch is actually good business practice. 

Charlie: And you mentioned before, you know, the barriers around this, as we've kind of spoken about, is actually getting the lawyers to do it. So, you know, lawyers might often say, we don't have time to reach out to clients. But is that really an excuse? Is it really about time? And I suppose are there other factors holding them back? And from your experience, how can CMOs help them shift that mindset so they kind of kick into action?

Jason: Yeah. And it is mindset. So often times you will find very talented attorneys use the word time as the barrier. When in reality, what they're really talking about is decision fatigue, that there are so many decisions that they have to do within a day that adding one more thing where they don't fully understand what the benefit is, then they're going to say, no, I don't have time for this. And I talk about this in the book. I really wanted to understand why we say keep in touch, but we don't. And I have a framework called the Bermuda keep in touch triangle. Just like ships and planes get lost forever in the Bermuda triangle, we have our own individual Bermuda keep-in-touch triangles. And what is also holding us back is guilt, fear, and worry, these normal human emotions that are not allowing us to connect or reconnect.

We're afraid that we're going to come off salesy. We're showing angst because we are the ones that feel shame or regret that we've not stayed in touch. And so really the opportunity for each Chief Marketing Officer is just to remind their partners and their lawyers that outreach is not salesy, that it's actually being helpful and useful. Because if you're, again, taking the client perspective, the number of things that the general counsel and deputy general counsel and all these different purchasers of legal services, which is really solving business problems, they're facing all these issues. They need the attorneys. They need their expertise. And so the opportunity for the CMO is how can they continue to provide simple and consistent routines and just reminders, here are your key clients, here's the research and articles that are relevant to them, and just add a couple of sentences around the fact that you're thinking of them. And so one of the most wonderful opportunities, and I talk about this in my book, is this notion of positive reminiscence. 

Positive reminiscence is a psychological concept that's used in dementia patients to share a photo or a sound or some type of memory to bring them back. And there's also this professional version of positive reminiscence where you can say, you know, I still remember when we worked on this transaction. How's it going? I was thinking of you. Or I thought of you because you had once shared a joke about the certain types of thing and somebody had said something similar. And so these bite-sized little micro-memories are actually having greater impact to their clients than lawyers think. And so that's, again, where the Chief Marketing Officer can be the storyteller, the historian, and the dot connector. 

Charlie: Yeah, I love that. I love this idea of positive reminiscence and those kind of micro memories as a way to reconnect with people. Because I think that's often, I can imagine that's often a barrier, you know, you think, oh, yes, I should reach out to that person and reconnect. But actually, what am I going to say? And how does that not feel awkward? So as you mentioned, finding that kind of memory or something that you have in common that you can just touch base on, I imagine is a very helpful tool. So thank you for sharing that. 

Jason: And it's as simple as, I thought of you because, and I still remember when. And if you use those phrases, that gets you unlocked from, I don't know how to start. And the fun part also is, I looked at the social science on this, people actually don't care how they're remembered. So you can do text or direct message or email or whatever is most comfortable for you. Sharing a memory, both personal or professional, is the biggest gift you can actually give your client. 

Charlie: Yeah, it's great, great advice. Nice. And can you share an example, Jason, where kind of a simple relationship habit or a small shift led to a big impact? And what could CMOs take from that?

Jason: I'd been coaching a partner who, during our coaching engagement, was elevated to become relationship partner for this Fortune 200 company. And in that moment, of course, you know, quite stressful that she started to go in all these different directions. I need to look at the competition. I need to look at all these different kinds of things and had lost her own focus on all the gifts that she already had. The fact that the firm was very well placed, they had other practice groups that were actually in a place that could solve this client's need because one of the things that we were talking about was, well, let's look at their annual report. Let's look at their SEC filings. We started to notice that there were issues that other law firms were not solving and that this particular law firm had internal capabilities. At the same time, she had mentors within the firm that had gone to relationship partner, knew what the transition was like. And so there was this opportunity for her to leverage the totality of the firm's resources, one where other mentors and sponsors were guiding her on what it was like to be a relationship partner. 

And then secondarily... Between both the chief marketing officer and the chief talents officer. Helping her figure out who were the resources internally so that when she went before the general counsel for their annual presentation, she was able to show the capabilities and they were actually able to get two other practice groups into this Fortune 200 within six to nine months. And this was an enormous opportunity because they've been trying to cross-sell to this organization for years. And finally, she was able to do it because of that internal collaboration. And so I think the takeaway is that I know the challenges that CMOs have in that they're continually trying to remind their partners and practice groups to collaborate on those things. But the more that CMOs can continually identify these case studies, retell those stories, it might not happen in this year, but in the following year or the year after, there can be more of these types of stories that can actually happen. And so I think the big takeaway for CMOs is don't give up on this. The more that you can retell these stories internally, the more that you'll find that partners will internalize the message.

Charlie: Wow, that's a fantastic anecdote. So thank you for sharing that. And I'm just rounding this off, Jason, before we get into a fun quickfire round. Can you share, if you could choose just one kind of top piece of advice for CMOs aiming to build that real genuine human connection that unlocks cross-sealing opportunities, what would that piece of advice be?

Jason: I think one is create an opportunity and exercises between partners where you can ask them, all right, what are three things that you have in common? And give them 15 minutes to actually run a competition on who has the most in common. And when we talk about trust, we don't talk about the execution of that trust. And I think that is the greatest opportunity is to remind the people on their own platform, in their own offices, in their own practice groups, they actually have a lot more in common than they think. And these continual trust-building exercises then can create larger conversations for cross-selling. 

Charlie: Yeah, I love that. That's brilliant. So yeah, remind them what they have in common, build that into a competition and I'm sure all the lawyers will be getting on board with that. That's fantastic. Thank you. And if you're happy to, we'll dive into a little fun quickfire round now. 

Jason: Awesome.

Charlie: Excellent. So we just need to know these straight off the top of your head. What are you currently listening to? Could be music, podcasts, or audiobook.

Jason: I am obsessed with the great music of the 1980s. So I just listen to 1980s remixes all the time. Love You Too. So that's my happy place.

Charlie: Excellent. Excellent choices. And what's the best piece of advice you've ever received? 

Jason: The best piece of advice on advice is to ask for advice. And so when I was in high school and I had all these questions and there was a family friend who was a senior exec at a Fortune 100 insurance company, he said to me, the biggest gift you can give someone more senior is to ask advice from them. Because if you ask for the thing itself, you'll get a yes or a no answer. Everybody loves to give advice. So his advice on advice was to ask for advice. And his second piece of advice was to remind the person on how you use that advice. And so in a lot of different ways, he was saying, well, keep in touch with the person. And so those two pieces of advice on advice and reminding others of the advice was actually the best advice I got on advice.

Charlie: That's quite meta, isn't it? Actually, I had I was reading a book and it said about people that love to cook. The best compliment you can give them is asking them for a recipe on how they made something. So it kind of along those lines of, you know,asking their advice. 

Jason: Absolutely. Absolutely. We, and, and, and, you know, Charlie, that's such an important thing is that what if we went into every conversation, you know what, I could learn something from this person. Let me see what they have to say and let me listen to the, and, and say, you know what, that's really interesting. Can you provide a recipe or something? And so I, I love that. And I hope you're still making that food.

Charlie: Always. So what's one book or resource that you'd recommend to anyone in your field?

Jason: For me, you know, as an adult with ADHD, where I need really complex ideas broken down into simple steps, for me, the universal book is Atul Gawande's Checklist Manifesto. So, Atul Gawande is a doctor in Boston, and he recognized that checklists actually help save lives in the emergency room. And then he went on to notice there are checklists in all these different other types of industries. So, whether you're a Chief Marketing Officer or a partner law firm or a parent,I believe that everything is worthy of a checklist. And so I think that's the biggest gift you can give somebody else is to take this complex idea and break it down into steps. So checklist manifesto by Atul Gawande.

Charlie:Yeah, that sounds very helpful. I'm definitely going to make a note of that one. And what's your favorite way to unwind after a busy day?

Jason: What I love to do is to spend time with family. We're at the dinner table and my wife has two foundational questions. So one is what was the best part of your day? And then we also have a journal that has a journal prompt of a question. And we're able to remind ourselves of what we had said the year before and the year before that and the year before that. And so for me, the greatest shift going from my work day to my unwind is to remind myself of what was the best part of my day? What was the best part of my family's day? And then to remind myself of what wacky answer we had to, OK, you know, what's your favorite type of protein or what's your favorite movie or any of those types of things? So I like to unwind with family. 

Charlie: Oh, that's a great tip. Love that. And the final question, where is your favorite place to visit and why?

Jason: Ooh, that's tough. Well, you know, you might hear a little bit of a New York or New Jersey accent, but people might not know that I lived in France for five years. And so as a Francophile, I love Paris. I love Lyon because I lived in those two cities. So it would be a first and second between Paris and Lyon. And I love those places no matter what time of year. There's certain nooks and crannies within the cities that are just absolutely beautiful. And anytime I'm in either of those two cities, it always puts me in a happy place.

Charlie: That's a great answer. They both sound absolutely magical. So thank you, Jason. And thank you for joining us today. It's been fascinating to hear your insights and hear more about the techniques and the tactics that you share in your book as well. It's been a pleasure.

Jason: Thank you, Charlie.

Charlie: Thank you.And thank you all for listening to this episode of the Passle CMO Series podcast. 

You can follow the Passle CMO Series podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.