Will: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series podcast, where we discuss all things marketing and business development in professional services. You've heard my voice before many times. My name is Will Eke. I'm an SVP here at Passle, and today on the podcast, we are going to be talking about taking a holistic approach to client development in legal marketing. From fostering deeper connections to unearthing new business opportunities through a greater understanding of the client's goals, legal teams can actually benefit hugely from a more holistic approach to their marketing and business development efforts. In today's episode, we're going to uncover how legal marketing teams can really go about this, and we're going to dig into that a bit more. Very happy and lucky to be joined by Ian Ribald. Ian is the Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer at Ballard Spahr.

Charlie: The CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle, the creators of Crosspitch AI which makes cross selling happen. Switch it on and try it today by visiting passle.net Now back to the podcast.  

Will: Welcome Ian. 

Ian: Thank you very much. I'm excited to be here.

Will: Good stuff. Ian, he's also been at Norton Rose. He's had a wealth of experience, spent a number of years there leading global initiatives and now at Ballard Spahr, which is an exciting place to be at the moment, which we'll come on to. He's also been focused on enabling more collaboration across teams that he's worked with, and he's really been living the holistic approach to client development. So we're going to delve into that. And my first question, just for our listeners to understand your sort of journey, you've only been at Ballard Spahr for a few months now. What would you say has been the biggest surprise in your role compared to previous positions and what changes are you hoping to bring? I know often people talk about a 30-day, a 60-day, a 90-day plan, but I know that it's far more long-term than that. What are you thinking at the moment? What are you bringing?

Ian: Sure. So let me start by saying that the one thing that was surprising in a positive way is the level of teamwork and support among colleagues when I joined, and I've been here for a little over six months, is truly remarkable. Everyone is genuinely invested in each other's success. And that, to me, has just created a motivating and really positive work environment. And to me, that's one of the immediate surprises that I saw here that I thoroughly enjoy. In terms of substantive changes, so I am looking to bring a fresh perspective on how we service our clients internally and externally. A lot of that has to do with process enhancements, but a lot has to do with technology and how we're streamlining our process with technology. We're constantly looking for ways to improve our efficiency and being able to lift up our client service for our internal clients and external. So that's one. And then I'll say, as far as the team perspective, I'm a big team player. I'm a big team player. So communication is key, right? So building stronger communication channels is critical. And then I would say getting people to work more cohesively together, which will improve having an efficient team, that's also a big component.

Will: And for those listening right now or in the industry that don't know, you guys are just going through a combination right now. That is public knowledge, right? 

Ian: We combine with a firm called Lane Powell that was heavily in the Pacific Northwest. And we officially combine as of January 1st. So that has closed. And we actually had our partner's retreat in Miami where we got to spend time with everyone. And there's a lot of great energy and excitement with additional lawyers that have joined the firm and business professionals.

Will: And I'm guessing we've talked about this off camera before, but that does lend itself to this, you bringing the teams together, being that team player, because you inherit another team, right? So you've got to, you've got to gel those together and that's working out alright. 

Ian: Working out great. I'm very lucky that the group, it was a very cohesive group in the first place and they've really fit in nicely with our larger group and our larger team. So I've been very fortunate. That's something that I anticipated possibly being a challenge and I was proven wrong. It wasn't a challenge at all. 

Will: That's very good to hear. We talked before and you have been other big law firms, Norton, Rose, Fulbright being one. You talked to me before about your time there running client programs and how that sort of transformed your approach and your way of thinking about marketing and business development. Can you tell us a bit more about the moment that you found that and how it shifted your mindset moving forward?

Ian: Sure. So I spent a couple of little over four years managing a client program in the United State, and then I had a couple of client roles at my previous firm before Norton Rose, which was at Baker Botts. And one pivotal moment that stood out to me was when I started to focus on our client feedback initiative, we were getting information from clients. We were getting a holistic view of their business issues, their legal concerns. Getting a bird's eye view of the pain points of client, the expectations, the experiences with the law firm services. To me, that was my aha moment. And that's when I realized that every single member of the marketing and business development team needs to be thinking about how their role supports the client holistically, not just whatever function they're handling. So that was really my aha moment. And then hearing firsthand from clients about what they valued, where they saw room for improvements, this was all eye-opening, but it definitely shifted my mindset. And I used to approach marketing from whatever seat I was sitting in. So if I was supporting the corporate group, that was the lens I was looking through. If I was supporting IP or litigation, same thing. But this role and these moments, I should say. Allowed me to look at it more client-centric rather than practice-centric or role-centric, which was completely revolutionary to the way I now approach marketing and business development.

Will:It makes absolute sense as well, Ian. We're often told, I was in a big law firm recently that interestingly has just been through a combination. There are a few years through it. They were talking again about, we must break down the silos, which is what you're saying about that bird's eye view of being holistic. It automatically does. So it causes you to think about everything from a client perspective. And as a result, it breaks down those silos that so many firms are trying to get rid of. Would you say that is a fair assessment from your side? 

Ian: It's a very fair assessment. And we expect a lot from our partners to work together and be cohesive. And that is something that I think every marketing and business development group looks to enhance. And yet, if you look at their own teams, sometimes they're not working cohesively together. So I think it starts with us, and we have to support each other to be successful. But in order to support each other to be successful, we have to think about the holistic approach, not just the role that we're sitting in.

Will: Yeah, you've mentioned the holistic approach, and especially from a client development perspective. Why do you think it's essential for legal teams to see clients from all of these different perspectives? I know you've touched upon it already, but I wondered if you could delve into that a bit more.

Ian: Yeah, let's give an analogy. A holistic approach to client development is think of it like a sports team. So you got to understand your strengths, understand the relationships, anticipate issues, communicate effectively. And each person on the team has to know their role and how they're supporting the project, that investment, that campaign, much like members knowing their positions on the field or on the court. And if you think about it, this strategy, if everyone knows their role and how they're supporting and everyone knows everyone else's role, you start to build better internal client teams and ultimately client relationships with the partner, with the clients to deliver, you know, top notch, superior legal services. But you got to have a cohesive team and that cohesive team has to look at the project holistically.

Will: You know that I'm automatically thinking of you as the point guard in this now, Ian, with that analogy.

Ian: I like to think of myself as Phil Jackson, because I've got some, I've got some superstar, I've got some superstar players on my team right now.

Will: There we go. In terms of keeping everyone with this holistic approach and your, and your team, as you talk about, how do you keep everyone on the same page? How do you keep them motivated with a different approach? And you've already said, I'm imagining you're changing quite a lot of behavior here. So how do you get that buy-in? It must be hard. 

Ian: It's definitely, there's definitely challenges there's to me it goes back to that atomic habits book right you gotta have some good habits we have a lot of communication across our team. We have really strong leaders that have a clear sense of the vision and articulate that vision. Constantly by giving regular updates making sure people understand why we're performing what we're performing and then the collaboration is key and then the one thing i'll say that i think most groups may not do enough of, and I'm trying to do that systematically, is celebrate the small wins because it really gets people motivated and gets everyone aligned. And I think we work in such a fast-paced, high-pressure environment that sometimes taking the moment to, you know, acknowledge what I'll call the moments of excellence, keeps everyone excited, but also focused again.

Will: Yeah, that makes sense. And you've already mentioned a couple of the firms that you've been at. And I'm guessing with all of that experience in those different roles, how do you encourage your team to understand the different areas of the business and the different pressures that come with that? And how do you think that builds empathy to improve the client experience?

Ian: Let me share this. There was a client I used to work very close with in a previous firm. And what they did with their legal department is they would have one of their lawyers that was supporting one function of the business after two to three years move to a completely new function of the business. And that gave them not just a better understanding of the business, but skilled them up into that area. So if they were supporting labor and employment, now they were handling corporate. And as a result, the business got the best of that particular professional because now that person had new areas of knowledge and was able to leverage the old areas of knowledge. So if you think about that as a model, we're doing something similar, right? We're skilling up. We launched a skilling up program where we're trying to educate our entire team on our complete function. So every month we have professionals talk about their area of expertise. We might bring in speakers that have expertise outside of your kind of hard skills, more of your soft skills. And we're trying to educate everyone on our team on our service offerings, our industry approach, a deep dive into clients. We're not moving people around necessarily, but we're giving everyone insight into all the components of our team. And as a result, I think we will have a better understanding holistically of everyone's roles, but also their pressures, because every role has a different sense of pressure. And if you understand everyone's pressures, you're going to be more empathetic and really thoughtful before you reach out to someone with. Feedback or getting feedback. 

Will: So it's basically like an internal secondment to the different areas of the business.

Ian: Exactly. Although we're not necessarily moving people around, but it's essentially a secondment. That way they get up their own eyes on the business from that lens.

Will: And Ian, I'm just thinking out loud here, a side product to that, because again, one of the big things that we did a big piece of research last year, one of the big things that came out of it was that only 20% of managing partners at law firms felt that the markets understood what their firms did, right? So that's the view from the top about what clients think of a full-service law firm. You're taking it the other way and you're upskilling everyone so that actually the best positioned people are the business services lines to actually help with things like cross-selling. Right. 

Ian: That's exactly right. I'm a big believer in you have to know your clients, and then you have to know your internal clients. You have to understand what your partners do, the work they do,t he type of clients they service, what their value proposition in the marketplace. And that doesn't come accidentally. You have to be intentional to learn that. And when you have a large firm, you might not be able to do a one-on-one deep dive. You have to be systematic about how you're going to learn your own firm business. And that's going to take time. But as long as you're doing it systematically and you're being intentional about it, you'll get upskilled and then you could create your own opportunities to cross out. It's exactly what we're doing.

Will: Amazingly, we're nearly at the end here. It's been fascinating talking to you about this. I'm going to start our famous quickfire round. So my first question to you is, what are you currently listening to? And that can be music, podcasts, audio books. What are you into?

Ian: So my music choice has changed. I'm the dad of four girls, so I don't get to choose what goes on the radio as we drive to school. And as a result, I think Taylor Swift has taken over my music playlist and I'm not complaining. So that's where I stand on my music list right now.

Will: You're a man of my own heart. I've only got two girls, but I've also had to embrace the Taylor Swift wave. And it's like some people were quite embarrassed with their Spotify wrap up for the year, but my, my, mine certainly did embrace a number of, artists similar to Taylor Swift. Good stuff. This is a hard one, actually. What is the best piece of advice that you think you've ever received?

Ian: So the best piece of advice that I've received has to be from my dad. He always focused and actually said to me, focus on what you can control at an early age. And I've really taken that as a guidance throughout undergrad, law school, my professional career. And that's really helped me stay grounded, productive, and especially focused during moments of challenging situations, which sometimes this business can have.

Will: Yeah, great bit of advice. In terms of things to recommend from a book perspective, or it might be a resource, what would you recommend to anyone listening to this that you're into at the moment?

Ian: So the book that we gave out at our senior marketing and business development retreat in December was James Clear's Atomic Habits. And for me, that book is a necessary component of life in legal because it's really all about building strong habits and making sure those habits are applicable to your business and your role in a law firm. So that's the book that I've read it multiple times. I've handed it out to colleagues and friends, and it's next to my bed almost every night.

Will: I have it next to my bed, actually, Ian, as well. It's one of those ones that you can keep going back to. You put little post-its in it and then you can go back to the words of wisdom and find them again. Yeah, it's a great one. What's your favorite way to unwind during a busy day, which I'm guessing is most days for you? 

Ian: I do a lot of traveling. When I'm home, I would say my number one way to unwind is shooting hoops with my kids in the driveway. It's one of those just kind of childhood memories that really helped me clear my mind, get a sense of calmness, and I really enjoy it. And it's something that I get to do with my girls. So that's my moment. That's my favorite way to unwind moment. 

Will: And who's your team, Ian? Am I allowed to ask that?

Ian: Yeah, sure. That's a great question. So the oldest two team up, and then I team up with the younger two. And it's a three-on-two competition. And we usually split. Sometimes they win, sometimes we win. But it's fierce competition and it's getting more competitive every year.

Will: You'll have to send some video footage through. Yeah. What is your favorite place to visit and why? 

Ian: So as a kid, I spent a lot of time in South Florida. I had a lot of family in Miami. And so to me, that's a special place. Being near the beach, there's my family there. There's cherished memories that I have. And I get whenever I get out a chance to get out there, I look forward to it. And, i guess south florida would be my ultimate favorite place to visit and the palm trees don't hurt the palm trees don't hurt. 

Will: Lovely stuff my last question and again you're not allowed to push your dad's advice on this one it's what one piece of advice for others looking to take this more holistic approach for legal marketing and bring their teams aboard would you give to the people listening to this your peers.

Ian: probably focusing on two components; cohesion and collaboration If you think about it from cohesion, you want people working well together, right? You want people understanding their roles and knowing that they're investing in a goal that is uniform with everyone. And so that's, you have to build that systematically. And then collaborating, people collaborate differently. Some people collaborate in the office when they're spending time together on a project, and some people collaborate remotely. But making sure that You're building that into your skilling up. You're building that into the expectations. Getting people to think about how you're going to work with someone else that you haven't had a chance to not only gives you better teamwork across the team, which is important, but it also gives you a better understanding of how they're supporting the business. And again, this all goes back to if you know what everyone's doing and you know how you're going to support that function, your job's a lot easier and you feel bought in. And that's very important. Everyone has to feel they have a role. 

Will: It's great advice, Ian. You make it sound so easy. But I imagine, yeah, that comes with experience of doing it. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a brilliant episode. I'm really excited to have had you on. Thank you. 

Ian: Thank you very much for having me.

Charlie: You can follow the Passle CMO Series podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.