Alex:  Hello everyone and welcome to the CMO Series Podcast where we talk all things professional services, marketing, and business development. Now, if you're a law firm marketer, you know the pressure of juggling attorney demands, limited resources, and the push to stay strategic. Our guest today understands that better than most. On this episode of the CMO Series podcast, we're joined by Jocelyn Brumbaugh, Founder of Builden Partners and seasoned legal marketing leader with experience across communications and marketing at top firms, including  Foley & Lardner, Baker McKenzie, and Citadel. Jocelyn brings a process driven practical approach to making marketing work where it matters the most. Together we'll explore the skills legal marketers need to thrive in the future, from building trust with attorneys to having confidence to influence decisions, and equipping the next generation to succeed. 

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Alex: Jocelyn, welcome to the CMO Series podcast. 

Jocelyn: Thank you so much, Alex. Happy to be here. 

Alex: Happy to have you. Now, Jocelyn, like many legal marketing professionals, you've had a unique journey from PR to professional services marketing and then into your own ventures. To get started, I'd love to learn about what experiences most shape how you think about legal marketing today. 

Jocelyn: Sure, thanks. So long ago, early in my career, I was actually in consumer PR on the B2C side, and that's where I was, I was at a big agency back when 9/11 happened. And at the time, nobody knew what was going to happen to marketing and advertising and PR, and I was recruited to launch the communications department at Foley & Lardner in Chicago. I didn't know anything about legal at all, I was only planning to stay there for a bit, right? Until the world figured out what the world was going to do. But it turns out, I loved it and I actually loved it so much that I started my own trade group for law firm marketers in Chicago, it's called Legal and Professional Services Council, and that has been a huge driver of my career. But more importantly, it's really been a passion for me in growing that, and it helps me to see the crucial role that community plays in legal marketing. So, back to my story. So after about seven years when I started to look for what would be next after Foley, I vowed to go to a smaller firm so I could make a bigger impact, but I failed and instead I got a job running Global Communications at Baker McKenzie, which at the time was the largest law firm in the world. But after that is where I think it gets kind of interesting because then I was recruited to be an SVP at the Hedge Fund Citadel, which is Ken Griffin's firm. And being in financial services was such an eyeopener for me. I looked back at my time at Baker, you know, in Global Comms I was opening a new office around the world every other month, and every other month I was a chicken with my head cut off and had no idea what I was doing because we didn't ever write it down, we didn't ever make a process document, it just wasn't what we did back in those days. And then I go to Citadel and the focus is on process and improvement and debriefs, and those concepts were sadly so new for me. But, I decided right then that I could make a real difference in law firms by bringing the process-driven approach of a financial services firm, and applying that to law firm marketing. So from there, the launch of Builden was actually the easy part, right? I had grown LPSC, that trade group to more than 600 members so I knew how to start a brand from scratch and to make it meaningful in the community. And filling that sort of white space that I saw back when I was at Foley and Baker, because back then when I needed an extra set of hands or a specific kind of expertise, I would try hiring consultants who didn't have law firm experience, but I quickly saw that, that just doesn't work. So I knew that Builden would have an instant market for our services, for delivering marketing and business development exclusively for law firms.

Alex: Yeah, it's really cool to see how you, you know, applied what you learned from a different industry in the financial services practice to the legal marketing world, and I'd like to get a little bit more into that now. So at Builden, you're obviously working as an outside partner with firms of all sizes, and I'd love to learn what you think the biggest gaps are in firms right now, and why do you think firms struggle to fill them internally? And a little bit on that. What do you see as the toughest challenges for in-house marketers right now? 

Jocelyn: Yeah, it's a great question. You know, navigating marketing resource constraints is the biggest issue that we see at firms across the board. I feel like never before have so many been stretched so thin, and then somebody on your team leaves and, and it feels like your whole world is ending. So, we're really thrilled to be the people to call who can step in and make legal marketers lives easier. And it, and it really looks different for different firms. Some firms, you know, on the AMLA side, they will have like a discreet project, ‘Hey, we're opening an office in Miami next year, what do we need to do to be ingrained in the community?’. Or ‘we've got eight associates in this office who we wanna elevate to partner next year, but they need business development skills and confidence’. Or like what we're seeing mostly these days, it's like some department like litigation or corporate, their marketing team has had a few people leave and then another one is going on parental leave next month. And you know, we get tapped to service like an all hats team to keep the attorneys happy for the next six months while the CMOs are able to stabilize the department. And then you asked the other question about the toughest challenges. It really is the prioritization piece and that's so hard within the partnership model because prioritizing something means saying no to something else. And we've sometimes found that engaging consultants helps with this, to be able to say, ‘Hey, you know, Builden is nearly out of hours or they're coming to the end of the scope, dear attorney, so could we please push that initiative to next quarter?’. It’s funny, you know, attorneys sometimes they just think that in-house marketers have an infinite number of hours in the day, and so sometimes just having that consultant who is saying, ‘Hey, there's an hours restraint or a cost restraint’, it makes it so much easier for the attorneys to be like, ‘Hey, this is a priority, and this is not’.

Alex: Totally. Now on the idea of prioritizing and the BD and marketing teams feeling really stretched thin. As an outside consultant, sometimes the attorneys maybe would trust you more than their internal teams. And I wonder why maybe you think that is, and how can marketing BD teams, like you're saying, use that to their advantage?

Jocelyn: Yeah, I mean, it is a real bummer and, you know, everybody has their first legal marketing job, and you see that really quickly, that the attorneys seem to sometimes value the consultant's opinions more than in-house people. And I mean, I have to tell you, Alex, I'm the same person with the exact same amount of smarts that I had when I was working in-house. But the unfortunate reality is attorneys sometimes place more trust or more weight in what the consultants say, even when their in-house teams are just as smart and capable. It is an advantage for us when doing things like business development, coaching and cohorts because like, I'm an entrepreneur, right? I am also building my book and so that gives me that instant relatability 'cause I'm in the trenches, I'm also navigating all the things that they're doing. So like, that's one piece that I think is harder for the in-house, unless they have also come from the consulting side. But, the advice that I would give is really about not feeling comfortable in giving your own opinion, even if the attorneys don't take it. That's really, that's what I found that they're really looking for. And when I was in-house, what was sort of lost on me was that it wasn't just to do the thing they said, it was to really be an advisor. And the goal is just to be a consistent, strategic voice over time to earn their trust, and so it doesn't matter whether you're, you have the same email address as they do, right, the same part after the @. It really is about giving that advice and being okay if they don't take it, but showing that you've thought through this and have an opinion on it. 

Alex: Yeah, definitely. And I'd like to get back, kind of, the point you just made about having, you know, the BD coaching and then also something you said at the beginning about how you have a passion for building this community in the market and, or in the industry rather. And so I was thinking about what skills do you think junior and mid-level marketers need the most, and why is that important for marketing and BD professionals to have that community? 

Jocelyn: Yeah, I mean, I think there's two pieces to that. Skills like writing, good writing, writing with clarity, project management and, you know, getting the attorneys to, yes, those are so important. And those are the kind of skills that aren't necessarily taught all the time, but that's what makes a successful legal marketer. But, like as you said, Alex, just as critical to all that is the community. Legal marketing is hard and it's fast paced and there's high expectations and sometimes low visibility. So finding your people makes such a difference, it’s such a difference in your mental health, and feeling good about your job, and feeling confident in giving opinions. That to me is such a huge part of it, and that was really the spirit behind LPSC, right? It's not just about connecting people and making them smarter and showing them some of the best practices from firms, it's about, it's a place to connect and to share and to grow with other people who get it.

Alex: Right. Being able, I think, to talk to other people who are in the same position that you're in, in your own firm, even maybe if you're the only person in that firm doing what you're doing, and not feeling like you're stuck in this silo. I'd kind of be interested to hear if you have a favorite project that you felt this is exactly the gap that Builden is meant to be filling that you've worked on? 

Jocelyn: Yes, it is definitely our Spark Legal Marketing Masterclass. So the origin, this is about a year old. About a year ago, a CMO came to us and asked if we could do training, and I said, oh yeah, of course, you know, BD coaching, BD cohorts, how to get business from events, all that sort of stuff. And she stopped me and said, no, can you train my marketing team? That was such a light bulb for us, and I was so honored that this CMO had come to us with this because we realized that at Builden, right, we train up our junior marketing team. But there really were few formal training programs out there for junior legal marketers and all of us who've been in this industry for a long time it's sort of osmosis, like we just sort of have figured it out based on being around other people. But most employees they are learning on-the-job from their managers who are already spread thin, or maybe the internal learning and development teams, they've got some focus on soft skills. But there wasn't anything out there that we could find that was about the specifics of learning legal marketing. So this Spark Legal Marketing Masterclass, it fills that gap and it gives a real turnkey solution to CMOs that wanna boost the skills of their junior team. And it has been so great because it not just does it build the skill, but it builds that community for some of these, especially the ones who join who are at smaller firms that don't have as robust of marketing departments. These folks, you know, they've got one or two or three years of experience, and they're not meeting other people who do what they do. But with this, with Spark, they're in a cohort and they make friends and then they learn all those legal marketing specific things, like how to leverage practice area specific marketing tactics, or awards and directory submissions, social media strategy. All of those things, it has so helped accelerate legal marketers' learning curve, and we've seen it really boost the retention for firms by giving these marketers the tools to succeed because we all know it's a tough place to be, law firms are tough places. So giving those skills and the community, I mean, that is just, it checks all the boxes for us at Builden.

Alex: Yeah, that's awesome. I think, you know, it's really important for any person going into a professional services role to have some way of knowledge transfer from people who have been in those roles before and when you're coming in cold, to actually learn what has worked from people before you, and also at different places at different firms.

Jocelyn: Yeah. 

Alex: Now, looking a little bit more into the future, if you think about five years ahead, what do you see as the biggest opportunities for marketers to actually make an impact in their firms? 

Jocelyn: Sure, sure. That's a great question. I really think that the biggest opportunity for legal marketers, it's at this place where data and strategy and storytelling come together. Because firms are so much more sophisticated than they were when I had my first law firm right back at Foley in the 2000s, they’re so much more sophisticated in how they collect and analyze data from client feedback, to experienced data. And the marketers who can take those and translate them into insights and into actions, that's really where we can add so much value, because it's not just saying the data says this, right? It's about using that to craft compelling client-focused narratives that are gonna make a big difference. And when you start giving that to attorneys in a turnkey way, they love it and they can't get enough of it, and then never go back to saying, well, let's just send this out to the entire firm mailing list, right? They start to get it, and that's where I think one place that we really do add value. We can help firms organize and visualize data and then activate it, turning that data into strategic messaging that's really gonna resonate with clients and prospects. And so that process driven approach drives that a lot. So there, that's where I see marketers being able to elevate themselves and play such a crucial role in business development. 

Alex: Right. I think there's, you know, on the one hand you can just do the job and be managing the data, but actually being able to translate that into insights and use storytelling to make your case effectively internally is really what matters. And now, if you think about on the chief level, if you could give CMOs right now one piece of advice for building those skills needed next in legal marketing, what would it be?

Jocelyn: I would tell CMOs to really focus on cross-training their team. The future of legal marketing, it's going to need agile players, well-rounded players who can really flex across different disciplines, different practices, and different parts of the department. As firms are getting bigger, it's harder to manage, right? We need some structure in the org chart, everybody can't do everything but we are seeing firms really siloing their talent, right? The awards person, we're only gonna train you on awards, you're only gonna do awards, but don't, we're not, let's not show you anything about social or some other aspect of it. And that really limits the growth of the team and so these marketers who can understand how different functions connect and can see that big picture, those are the people who are gonna be able to deliver the biggest impact. 

Alex: Right. I think there's a lot to be said about learning where you fit in into the broader team to actually do your job the best, rather than feeling like you're only stuck in this one silo and don't need to worry about what everyone else is doing.

Jocelyn: Yeah. 

Alex: So if we can move on really quick before we leave to a quick fire round, just to get to know you a little bit more. 

Jocelyn: Sure. 

Alec: Do you have a few minutes? 

Jocelyn: Yeah. 

Alex: Okay. Now Jocelyn, what are you currently listening to? Could be a music podcast or audiobook. 

Jocelyn: Oh, so I really like Planet Money, the Planet Money podcast from NPR, and I just discovered yesterday that they are doing this episode on making a board game. And this, I'm so nerding out on this, a few years ago they made a superhero and they just talked about the concept of marketing it and all that kind of cool stuff. Planet money is kind of like, it's like how I built this, but for marketing and economic concepts and I'm super psyched about this new series about building a board game.

Alex: That's actually really cool. I know. Now, what is the best piece of advice you've ever received? 

Jocelyn: The best piece of advice, you know, when I got to Citadel, my boss said to me, ‘your emails are too long’, and I was like, what do you mean? Right, because at Baker I would start my emails being like, as you recall, and I would say all the things that ever happened from the beginning of time up until now, and then only at the very, very, very bottom when I tell you what I needed you to do. And this one was like, what is this? And that was such an eye-opener to me. I talked earlier about one of the skills being, getting to ‘yes’ quickly, and so that taught me that a super long email is not gonna get you to ‘yes’.

Alex: Definitely. And having been only at Passle for about six months, that's something I've heard too is, you know, keep it short and to the point, and it's something I'm still learning and struggling with, but I think it's great advice. Now what about a book or resource you would recommend to others in your field? 

Jocelyn: So can I pivot on that one? 

Alex: Sure. 

Jocelyn: If you want to really expand your knowledge of legal marketing, call up some other legal marketer and take them to coffee. I would much rather that's what you do on your lunch hour, if you are taking lunch and leaving your desk, right, to not sit there and get a book, but to go talk to somebody else and find out what they're working on and what challenges they have. That, that's what I want to have happen instead. Is that okay? 

Alex: Yeah. Nice. 

Jocelyn: Okay, good. Thanks. 

Alex: And Jocelyn, what's your favorite way to unwind after a busy day?

Jocelyn: I am a late-to-the-game hiker. We live like a mile from a forest preserve that I swear to you I never even saw before COVID. But then when there was literally nothing else to do, we started going to that one. And now the one that's close to us, I call that the bad forest preserve and it's lovely, but it's flat. And so now, you know, I know all the forest preserves within a half an hour drive, and I love to go to the Hilly ones.

Alex: If I can pry just a little bit more on that one. Do you have a name? Like what is, where is that? 

Jocelyn: So, I like the Willow Springs one. I live in the western suburbs and so just south of me, maybe three or four miles, there are a really great collection of trails and there's a lot more water features like, you know, sloughs. I don't even know if I'm saying that right, it's S-L-O-U-G-H, maybe it's slough, I don't know, but it means like a gross pond. But I love hiking around gross ponds. 

Alex: Awesome. And lastly, what is your favorite place to visit and why? 

Jocelyn: So I live in Chicago and like any good Chicagoan I vacation in Western Michigan, that's where we all go. And so for the past few years we have been going to South Haven every summer and we go with another family, my college roommate's family. And that has just become such, such a great memory maker for my family. 

Alex: Awesome. Well, Jocelyn, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the CMO Series podcast and hope to see you soon.

Jocelyn: Thank you so much Alex, I loved being here today. 

You can follow the Passle CMO Series Podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.