Alex: Driving business development in a mid-sized regional firm isn't about big budgets. It's about sharp strategy, creativity, and making every move count. In this episode of the CMO Series podcast. We're joined by Kelley Goes, Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer at Jackson Kelly, whose path to legal marketing is anything but conventional.

Kelly began her career as a litigator at Akin Gump, served as West Virginia's Secretary of Commerce, and even ran state operations for Joe Manchin before stepping into the world of legal, BD and marketing. Today, Kelley is leading marketing and BD strategy at Jackson Kelly, bringing a bold, practical approach to raising lawyer profiles and winning business in a lean regional firm environment.

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Alex: Kelley, welcome to the CMO Series podcast. 

Kelley: Thank you so much for having me. 

Alex: Thanks so much for joining. Now, Kelley, you've made a unique shift from practicing law to working in public service to now leading marketing and business development. I'd love to hear about your journey in your own words and how you found your way into the CMBDO role at Jackson Kelly, and perhaps what inspired that move.

Kelley: So to back up my first job out of law school, I went to Dallas, Texas and did complex commercial litigation for Akin Gump, mostly intellectual property litigation. But family and my fiance and life pulled me back into West Virginia. When I relocated after my career at Akin Gump, I didn't want to necessarily go straight into a law firm situation. I ended up going into state government and I was the general counsel. For tourism, forestry, and the Division of Natural Resources, which is the first big mental leap that you do in a career that starts off with big litigation. I think my first case for the Division of Natural Resources was obtaining clemency for an attack beaver, who had allegedly assaulted a small child in a swimming hole. 

Alex: No way. 

Kelley: And so from that role, I actually, all of three of my agencies were in the Department of Commerce, and when Joe Manchin became governor of the state, I worked closely with the Secretary of Commerce and then found myself appointed to that role and confirmed by the Senate. The bonus to that role is that what came along with it is we had been charged to take all of the agencies within commerce and consolidate their marketing and communications into basically an in-house marketing communications agency. So I found myself coming from a law background to now being responsible for marketing the state of West Virginia to business and tourism, to now running my own ad agency within that. And so we did everything from providing crisis communications to providing press releases, answering reporter questions, creating ads, creating magazine layouts. There's a West Virginia magazine that was part of one of the agencies that we had to execute, so that was really trial by fire. And the one key piece of that was taking the antiquated, very clumsy website and turning out a new Department of Commerce website. And you have to do that with a low bid. So if we've ever tried to do technology on a low bid. That was quite the adventure as well.  So time passes, you're into that job. Governor Manchin becomes Senator Manchin. I followed him and ran estate operations and then decided I was going back into private practice. So I go back into private practice too. Actually practice law. I did government relations 'cause I had been in government, and people think that you can speak government once you've been there and then. Jackson Kelly was trying to update their website and they had contracted for the platform and the website development, and it had stalled because lawyers don't necessarily understand the process of managing that type of project, and so I poked my hand up and said. As it happens, I have been through this and so I'm happy to take lead on this and help us get it across the finish line in connection with the marketing and business development team that was at the firm and that really sealed my fate. Our Chief Business Development Officer left shortly after that and they were looking around for someone and by this time, you know, it was several years into my career at Jackson Kelly and just realized the challenges that a regional mid-size law firm runs into in marketing and business development. And I worked for a very large firm. I've worked for regional firms. I've been the client, I have clients, and so I also poked my hand up and said. Do you want me to take this over, at least in the short term, so that we can not lose the synergy in what we're doing. And I know our firm really well, and I've had all this experience to bring to the fore and let's go for it. And they tried to talk me out of it, but then ultimately I said, okay, I really mean it. And we did it. So then that's been in 2017 and it's been a wild ride ever since.

Alex: Yeah. Not many people can say, you know. They've done private practice and public practice and also have been the client, but also be the internal partners to the lawyers. And they're almost your clients now, I guess with this combined legal public sector background, small firm and large firm. Was there a defining moment in how you approach marketing and BD now at Jackson Kelly? 

Kelley: So everything that I do in marketing and business development is through the lens of communication. My philosophy is that lawyers communicate professionally for a living, and whether you are a litigator and you're on your feet in front of a judge or a jury. Or you are a transactional attorney and you're drafting the documents that go into a deal. Fundamentally, what we do is communicate effectively, and so that is sort of my guiding star. Everything that we do in marketing and business development. Everything we try to get our lawyers to do, and that's where I think having been on all sides of these relationships gives you an idea of who your audience is.

So when I'm speaking to the client, or I'm speaking to a prospective client, or I'm speaking to our reputation at large, so I'm speaking to our competitors, or I'm speaking to potential laterals. It's always been a little bit clearer for me, I think with my experience, how to target those messages and what we want to get across. And if I had to say the defining moment was in commerce when our little internal ad agency started winning awards, it really drove home to me that if you get some background information and some facts and you're passionate about what you're marketing, you really can make strides and accomplish what you're doing. And I wanted to bring that same mentality and energy to the law firm, which was an interesting sell because they knew me as a lawyer or they knew me as a public figure, but they didn't realize all the work that had gone in behind the scenes. And so that was a little bit of leap of faith on both sides.

Alex: Yeah, definitely. I like how you said that, you know, fundamentally everything you're doing is communicating effectively and. I guess you've had plenty of experiences communicating effectively with all different types of stakeholders and working in politics with leaders like Joe Manchin. Maybe I'd like to learn if there's any leadership lessons which influenced how you support the team in communicating effectively at Jackson Kelly. 

Kelley: Absolutely. So we'll take Senator Manchin first. He's a natural communicator. He is a natural people person. And so watching someone who's a natural communicator, like you could give him a speech and he's not going to read it, so you can give him talking points and he will connect with the audience, and he's a really good listener and he also taught me that you let people have their say. Sometimes that's really all they want. And I think, again, you take that sensibility into the communications that you're doing either with your client, 'cause I have actual legal clients, and then I have the law firm who's my client for the marketing and business development. And then you take those lessons of communicating and responding to your audience. That's more of a challenge now that everything is online and there's a distance between you and your audience. You know, a lot of what you do working for a retail politician is in person. And then the other thing that I learned from Joe Manchin's leadership style is that you just simply keep going. You have your goal in mind. You take your steps toward the goal. If it doesn't work out, you keep going. If you make a mistake, you make your apologies, and you just keep going. And there's a real art to that. And he was always very, very clear with what he wanted to accomplish for his constituents or what he wanted his agencies to accomplish. And I think that makes it a lot easier to take your tasks back to your specific job description. And make sure that everybody's efforts are working towards the same goal. And so that is one thing I take to my team, even if we're doing a, what I would call a more fun project, something creative maybe for the holiday party. There's always a reason why I'm taking on that task. Maybe it's to prove that we're really good at video. Maybe it's to prove that we can be very creative in working together to come up with a story or a message. But the fun part of that is always the overarching why we're doing it and what skills we're showcasing for the firm.

Alex: Yeah. I like how you kind of started with talking about how what you learned was how Joe Manchin was able to connect with an audience and write how you applied that to connecting with your audience, both in the firm and externally to the firm's clients. And I imagine at a mid-size firm like Jackson Kelly, you are running a lean operation and there's definitely high expectations.So how do you manage those internal maybe perceptions of marketing, especially when you're introducing a new campaign, a new tool platform, not just maybe a, you know, a holiday party, but something else.

Kelley: So another thing that I learned from two very influential supervisors I've had, one was a rainmaking partner at Akin Gump and one also Joe Manchin, is that as between me and the rest of the world, I have the best team on planet Earth. Now, if I have an issue with my team, I will take it out there in private. So any flack that we're gonna get from the lawyers or the law firm, I'm standing in front of it. It is also one of the perks of having the same degree as your client, and I think that gives them a lot of space to be creative and try out some new ideas. And then we try to make it as easy as possible for the lawyer to understand what we're doing, why we're doing it, and what that particular role is. And so we demonstrate it. So for example, last year we did, I'm gonna use the holiday party 'cause we're actually working on a project for this year's holiday party. Last year's holiday party. We did an example of how you can use AI because even a year ago AI was newer and scarier than it is now, where it seems to be already everywhere. And so we were playing around with how AI can create voices, how AI can create music, how AI can create video content. And so we actually did that whole project as a group, and then I take that project to the managing member and I take it to our senior leadership, and I said, this is why we're doing it. You may think it's a little bit silly, it's going to be fun. It's a lighthearted event anyway. But this is what we're showcasing. And so when we roll it out in advance to the firm, the explanation for why we're doing it is gonna be there so that they have a comfort level that we can create high quality content the same as any other law firm, or the same as if we had put our resources in an outside agency because one thing that I did do is I brought in some talent to work on the team that can create that type of thing. And what I've found is if you're really smart and thoughtful about your content, it doesn't have to be flashy and exciting. It just has to be very authentic. And I think when you're a mid-size law firm, trying to get your message across in as many ways as you can, authenticity is really sort of the secret weapon that you have. And and to do that. And then the other perception in marketing that we get to say to the lawyer is, and I can say it, lawyer to lawyer. I can't have anyone hire you. All I can do is put you in a position where you look to be the trusted advisor. You look to be the intellectual thought leader in this area. You are the person that solves this person's problems. I will present you in all those ways, you'll be a thought leader, you will be the answer to their problem, and you'll be the only person on planet Earth that can solve it. But the only person that can seal that deal after I put you in the position of looking that way is you. And so I think that's the other thing that you get to say to a lawyer that helps set all the work that the staff has done to go into it. And that goes to everything from an RFP to how we promote a blog, or we might suggest a speaking position or what we choose to sponsor where we ask our lawyers to go to interact with clients and potential clients.

Alex: Awesome. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a very creative way about, you know, making your case to the lawyers internally. And I like how you said, you know, you'll take fire for your team. Like you will stand in front of them and you'll be the main person advocating for what you're doing internally and you know, having a background as a lawyer helps give you that buy-in. I kind of want go now to thinking about, you talked about how you, how you're building that team and using them to empower the lawyers. You know, you're building a team, I guess is. A little bit outside a traditional like large firm mold. So what do you look for when you're hiring and how do you bridge the gap between creative thinking and legal culture? 

Kelley: So, ironically, when I'm hiring, we put out the position description, which sounds pretty generic honestly, and we get the resumes that come in that will have a marketing or business developed background or sales background or a social media background. And I look for the person who's already had hard jobs because working for lawyers is a challenge. And spending decades in a career looking for all the mistakes, finding something wrong with everything, and being under stress does not always make for an easy client. So I have seen folks in positions of dealing with marketing or dealing with lawyers on the service side. To have a little bit of a challenge there. And so for example, one of my employees was, he was living in Arizona. He wanted to come back to West Virginia and he had been a standup comedian and his job when I interviewed him was he did online responses for Comcast for customer complaints. Basically, I knew I was gonna hire him before I even interviewed him. Like if you can stand being a standup comic and you can handle customer complaints online for Comcast, I mean, these are angry people that want to see the football game that don't have Cable. So you can handle lawyers. I have a lot of confidence that I can train anyone how law firm business works and how we operate and what lawyers do. I want the outside perspective, so it's actually a bonus for me if you've never worked for a law firm. I want the person who's in charge of our events, who's in charge of swag, who's in charge of keeping track of we. I manage our events as a project. I want her to say, why on earth are you doing it this way? That doesn't make any sense to me. I want my communications person to have a fresh perspective, to know what is hitting the ear and the eye of multiple generations. I can edit for cranky, you know, lawyers that have been practicing for 30 years. I want someone who can give me a perspective to edit. And so that is, I think, another benefit of having me leading the team because I'm very comfortable with the business model and what we need to do, and that I can bring in all these fresh perspectives and keep it lively and keep it interesting and then perhaps get that little extra hook for someone to say, yeah, that's, that's interesting. I wanna watch that. I wanna hear more about that. Or I might want that person to represent me or even invite them to be a speaker. I mean, that's what we're trying to do is just continue to have our name out there so that when you need a lawyer, you think of Jackson Kelly. 

Alex: Yeah, I think it goes back to what you said at the beginning about all you're doing is effectively communicating, and you know, having people on your team who can communicate differently or know how to deal with hard situations. Like, you know, being up as a standup comedian, or take taking intakes from people without internet, you know? That's essentially, you know, effectively communicating, trying to get what you're saying across. And I guess a way to kind of look forward for other marketing and BD leaders in small teams like yours. What would you say is one practical step they can take to better support lawyers and with more smarter, focused business development efforts? 

Kelley: So I think that. The team needs to spend some time with the lawyer understanding what the lawyer's goals are. We use business development as kind of an umbrella, but actually for different lawyers it does mean different things. So for my younger lawyers or my associates, if you just say business development. And you don't really get into it a little bit, they start doing things like worrying about thank you notes and business contacts, which they should. But really their clients are the other lawyers in the law firm and really their business development is establishing their reputation and building their skills within the law firm. And they're actually a little bit relieved to hear that. So that is, I think, step one. For a mid-level, again, you might have a different set of challenges in terms of what their business development is. Maybe that is continuing to work with other folks in the law firm, maybe in a different office. Maybe that is starting to turn their contacts into some type of work. So let's really help them hone what their skillset is because they think of it as having legal experience. The client thinks of it is, who's going to solve my problem? Who do I have to pay the least attention to in this whatever legal issue I'm having, whether it's litigation or a deal that's also going to get done what I need to get done. And then for the firm writ large business development, what does that look like? That might look like breaking into a new market, that might look like rolling out a new practice group. And so I think this first step that I would do is be really clear in business development, who you're working for and what that person's goals are. And then you're gonna have your own little bag of tricks that you can use and apply to help that person achieve their goals. And when you start seeing that, again, it's the same thing. When everyone starts to do business development from the associates to the mid-levels to partners, then everyone's gonna see the results of that and they'll all look back on it. And of course, they give themselves credit, not necessarily business development, but they will see that it works and the team sees that it works. 

Alex: And then what would, you said that's step one. What would step two be? 

Kelley: Step two is to create content that goes with that for the lawyers, right? Yeah. So once you understand what they're gonna do, then you start creating content or opportunity, and you, every law firm is gonna have a slightly different structure. Sometimes that's gonna come through the practice group, perhaps, and sometimes the. The paradigm is what their business development goals are as have been approved. And then sometimes that's going to be something that you can see a bigger opportunity. So for example, we had a lawyer come that came to us, fairly senior lawyer in a management position, and he's kind of hit the zenith of his public service career. You know, he's chairing this and he's chairing that high profile things, and he really wants us to help him showcase this responsibility. So obviously I don't get to say no, but from my perspective, that's not necessarily business development, but it is an opportunity to do business development. So what we're gonna do is put together a series of opportunities for him to talk, but he's also going to introduce people within his practice group. And those little vignettes are going to be how not only is he a leader in the community, he's a leader in the law firm, and here's some of the high level folks that can solve your problem within this industry. So it kind of gives us the ability to say, okay, I see what you wanna do. It doesn't exactly, you know, align with what we're doing, but I can make this, create some content and get it out there and then we're still the answer to the question of how we solve your problems and why you would want us to be the ones to do that.

Alex: Yeah, I like that. You know, using what resources you have internally, even if someone like this guy who you're talking about is at the top of his career, what can he offer to the rest of the firm internally? Like what can he give back to the other members of his team? I like that. Well, Kelly, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I would like to, if you can, stick around for a few extra minutes, do a couple quick fire round questions just to get to know you a little bit more. 

Kelley: Of course. 

Alex: All right, awesome. Now, first off, what are you currently listening to? It could be music, a podcast, or an audiobook. 

Kelley: At any given time, I have an audio book, usually two ready to go. One is usually either related to marketing and business development, or you know, a healthy lifestyle type of improvement book. And then one is usually going to be a murder mystery or a spy thriller. So it's a little bit of a jump ball when I get in the car, whether I feel like improving my mind or whether I feel like tracking down a killer.

Alex: What's on the agenda for right now? So I've been tracking down killers lately. I just finished the latest installment of the Thursday Murder Club, so.

Alex: Oh my goodness. I just watched that and my girlfriend gave me the book. She's like, you can't watch it and not read the book too, like you. And so now I'm getting just about to get started on that. I heartedly concur. He, he is wonderful with developing those characters. And now I have moved on to a spy thriller by the same author that wrote Slow Horses. So if you like Spy thrillers, uh, apple TV and Slow Horses is also your friend there. 

Alex: Alright, I will check it out. All right. Now, what is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Kelley: Ironically, and I actually gave this question a lot of thought. It's very interesting because I felt like advice changed throughout my career and then I realized it really didn't, and it started with the West Virginia Scholars Program where there were like 12 of us who went on top of a mountain for a summer before our senior year in high school, and we had to write a hundred page thesis. And then we were also trying to figure out what colleges we wanted to go to and because I tested better in math and science. I was very convinced I was gonna be an engineer and I was gonna go to an engineering school. And our advisor, who had spent a lot of time over the summer building up trust with us, said, you have to promise me that you don't pigeonhole yourself that way. You have to promise me that if you go into engineering, you have to go to a university that also has robust arts and science. So, I actually started off as an engineer and ended up as an English major. But I think that his greater point was don't decide that you're gonna do something. Let your intellectual curiosity take you where it goes. And I think that has helped absolutely my entire career. So it's ironic. That the first major case I put was put on at Akin Gump was an intellectual property case, a patent infringement for polyethylene copolymers. So all of that chemistry was not wasted, but it also went to my curiosity and reading great writers from the 16th century and expanding the opportunity to learn a lot of things in in college, and I've kind of kept that philosophy all along. Try something new, learn something new, jump into something that doesn't make you feel comfortable, and I think it's led to interesting things.

Alex: Yeah, I love that. You know, take advantage of what you get. Don't limit yourself. Now, what is, I guess you talked about a book, but maybe a resource. We talked about the murder mystery books, but maybe another marketing BD book you would recommend to anyone in your field. 

Kelley: So, I'm old school because I think everything starts with communication. Go get a copy of Strunk & White and read it. 

Alex: Nice. Oh, I'm gonna have to do that. And now, what's your favorite way to unwind after a busy day? 

Kelley: I get outside. If I don't get outside some part of every day, I'm a little bit of a handful, barring that weather circumstance, believe it or not, I needlepoint.

Alex: Awesome. And lastly, what is your favorite place to visit and why? 

Kelley: Scotland. We go to Scotland to get lost in rural areas, to hike and drink single malt, and it's like the ultimate vacation for me. It's outdoors all the time, and brown liquor. 

Alex: Amazing. Well, Kelly, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today, and thank you so much for joining the CMO Series podcast.

Kelley: Alex, thanks so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. 

Charlie: You can follow the Passle CMO Series podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.