Will: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Passle CMO Series podcast, where we talk about all things business development and marketing. I'm the dulcet tones of Will Eke. I'm a SVP here on the commercial team at Passle. And today we're gonna be talking about delivering a business development plan that works in practice. If you think about building a business development function that actually drives revenue, it's not always just about activity. It's actually something that many law firms want to talk about, but few get it right. 

So today in our episode, we're gonna be joined by Helen Griffiths, who's the head of business development at Fladgate. And Helen brings a really unique perspective on this role, having spent a number of years in her career across litigation funding, global law firms, and also leading commercial barristers' chambers. Now, Helen joined Fladgate in 2024, and since then she's really introduced a more structured approach to how the firm goes about its BD activities, and that's normally built around a targeted strategy and ownership.

And we're gonna be talking more in depth about how she found Fladgate when she arrived, what she's done with the team and partners to bring them along on that journey, and also we're gonna delve into what she-

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Will: Really excited. Welcome, Helen. Thanks for joining us.

Helen: Thank you for having me.

Will: Delivering a business development plan that works in practice. Um, now, if we take it back, Helen, just have a quick look at your sort of career. You've had a really distinctive career in business development, and that's been, you know, within litigation funding at, at some of those global law firms that we talked about, and also at commercial barristers' chambers. At Fladgate specifically, now you're head of business development, how do you think those experiences along your career have really helped shape how you sort of hit that ground running at Fladgate?

Helen: Well, I suppose every role sort of teaches you what you, what you want and what you don't want, doesn't it? Or what you're good at and what you're not so good at. I think my career so far has sort of taught me a few things really in terms of, in terms of that. So I've always enjoyed being really hands-on. That's something that I've learned about myself.

I think when I first started my career at The Judge, which is a broker of litigation funding and insurance, and as compared to some of the law firms that I've worked at, it's a small business. I was one minute I would be kind of brokering litigation funding packages and working with solicitors and their clients and, um, the insurance and funding market to negotiate terms, and the next I would be, you know, very client-facing, out doing business development meetings with law firms, training sessions, and I also looked after the marketing and the business development across the, across the business.

So that sort of taught me that I loved kind of variety, I loved getting my hands dirty, getting, getting really stuck into things, and actually, when I moved from The Judge to Freshfields, clearly, you know, massive difference in size. And that was the challenge for me, going to that big magic circle environment where I was used to doing everything, to suddenly being one of, you know, a huge and brilliant team. And sort of trying to sort of figure out where I fit in with that, I suppose. There were specialists for events, websites. There was sector BD, there was practice BD, there were campaigns teams. We were spoiled for resources. And that sort of that world, you know, I learnt a lot, and I learnt a lot from people that really did specialize in their own individual thing. But it did sort of really kind of bring to the forefront for me that I do like doing a bit of everything. I do like dipping in and out of stuff and getting really stuck in. So that's sort of one thing that, that, that taught me. And then secondly, I've always enjoyed managing people, working with teams.

Again, that started at the Judge when I managed a small team of brokers, and I've managed people in every role since really. Whether that's one or two people right up to where I was at Clyde & Co and led the global insurance BD team managed a team of 18 in the UK. I just, yeah, I enjoy learning about people, being around people, finding out what makes them tick, what motivates them. Don't get me wrong, I know it's not for everyone. I've had that conversation many times with people, and it can be really challenging. You, you know, you, you have to have difficult conversations, make difficult decisions. You get kind of emotionally invested sometimes, and it can be really difficult actually. It's the kind of thing that keeps you awake at night. Um, but it's also really rewarding to see somebody grow in confidence into their role, or learn a new skill, or get a promotion, or just, you know, have, have job satisfaction. Or even if you can do something tiny to help them in their career, it's a really great part of the role that I really enjoy. So that's sort of what my experiences have taught me. 

And then thirdly, it sounds really cheesy and I know everyone says it, but the importance of a good culture. You know, I'm ambitious and hardworking and all of those things, but we all spend way too long at work frankly. And to be around people that you get on with, you can have a laugh with, are decent, respect one another, and value what business development and other business services, functions can bring, that makes such a big difference.

And so, I suppose the role at Fladgate encompasses all of those things. It brings all of those things together. I can get my hands dirty. If you know, work with a, with a great team. It's a great culture. So what that meant in terms of me getting- you know, hitting the ground running, it meant that I was comfortable that the role encompassed everything that you know, that I was looking for. And it gave me the confidence to just sort of get stuck in and get things, drive things forward.

Will: Yeah, that's a really interesting point you make there. I've heard that before where the grounding in a, in a smaller team that you can have the access, you know  you do have to get in the trenches. You have to get your hands dirty. You have to do a bit of everything, as you've described it. That ground, that grounding is brilliant, isn't it? Because then you know what makes a, what makes a successful team. Otherwise, you can sometimes be a bit siloed, can't you, in, in certain roles, and then you don't, you don't get to experience the other bits.

Helen: Yeah ...

Will: Yeah, I totally get that. And also the culture, again, it's such a massive thing. Sometimes it's difficult to know what it's like until you actually arrive, I suppose.

Helen: Yeah I think that's right, and I think, you know, earlier on in my career I probably thought the culture was something that, you know, it was quite nebulous. The business was responsible for the culture. And actually, you know, the longer I've been around, and, and funnily enough the, the managing partner at Fladgate, in my interview, you know, I asked about the culture and he said to me, "Well, we're all responsible for the culture. It's not something that happens to you when you join a firm. It's something that you have to bring as well." Hearing it sort of said like that, I was like, "Yeah,I really buy-in into that." I think that's exactly right. Everyone's got a responsibility to bring that culture, and it can be, you know, it can be sort of damaged or broken quite quickly. And so yeah, I think that's really important, and I think that everybody has a role to play in that.

Will: Brill. Invited straight in. Second question, Helen, for you is what, if you could tell us a bit about when you arrived at Fladgate, what did the business development side of things look like in 2024, and what- after you sort of suppose, did an audit and review of that, what were your immediate priorities that you found to get started with?

Helen: Well, I suppose at the, at the team level, um, there'd been some recent investment in the team and growth in the, the business development team, and business services more generally. And so that meant that we had a mix of new joiners who were completely new to the firm, and had only been there, you know, a matter of weeks before, before me. And there were some people that had been there longer than that but maybe were in different roles to what they joined,, either because they'd been promoted, or because I think shortly before I joined there'd been a bit of a kind of realignment to departments to make sure that each of the departments had dedicated BD resource in terms of a manager and an executive level.

So some people were doing slightly different things, and they were kind of learning about a new department. And as I say, some people were just new. So I think for me the priority was getting to know the team, getting to know what- to sort of understand what they felt they needed, what was working well, what they felt, where they felt the gaps were, and maybe where they thought I could help with that a little bit. And sort of going through that process and chatting to them, it became quite clear quite quickly that particularly given the team had grown and there were sort of, you know, different, different levels as you would expect, there was a bit of a lack of clarity around the expectations of, of some of the roles within the team.

And what did it mean to be a BD executive versus a senior BD executive? What did a senior executive do versus a manager? Et cetera, et cetera. And how could you develop from, from one, one, um, one role to the next? So working with Kim, the CMO, we put together a what we called our career development framework- And that literally sets out, you know, all of the different levels within the team, all of the different roles, what the requirements are in terms of experience, types of things that we expect them to be getting involved in, where we expect them to be supporting or taking the lead, what expectations there are around behaviors, all of those kinds of things.

And it clearly set out from one role to the next where that jump is, what, you know, what the difference is between those, those roles. And it, you know, went down well, I think. The team appreciated that sort of transparency and that structure, and it meant that when I was having those conversations with them, you know, we rolled it out and I sat down with each of the people in my team and spoke about where they feel on that, on that structure they sit currently. Where do they feel in their current roles they are doing really well? Where do they feel that there are gaps? Likewise, if they're looking to move to the next role, where do they feel that the business could help them in identifying some opportunities for them to upskill a bit?

And that then resulted in, um, some commonalities around training needs across the team, and there was definitely a desire for a bit more structure around training. And given that the firm had just invested in growing the team, we weren't, you know, I think it's fair to say that we weren't overwhelmed with the budget for training. So I worked very closely with, um, the wonderful Gail at PSNG, and we came up with a Fladgate PSNG collaboration training program, where we had five or six sessions where PSNG members would come, but we would host in Fladgate and, and my team would be, would be invited to train the team on those themes that had come out of those discussions.

So we had, as I say, five or six sessions, inviting in some really fantastic speakers. And we've only just actually, in the last couple of weeks, had our last session of the program. So yeah that was definitely one of the, the bigger priorities around the team. And then on the sort of approach to the business development side, as I say, you know, the team had grown significantly quite recently before I joined. And also the firm, you know, the firm's very fast-growing. It's got a really, really good growth story, so it meant that the infrastructure was sort of slightly playing catch-up, as it were. And one of the, the biggest things I think that we've, I've put in place or we've put in place as a team since, since I joined and, and one of the biggest differences I can see is the a- approach to BD planning.

Historically, there were plans. There were plans in place. Was there a plan for every department? Probably not. Was there a consistent approach? Probably not. Not sure how much the plans were sort of looked at after they were put in place. So working with all of the managers and the execs in the team, we now have a very clear, robust set of BD plans for each department, and even within each of the sort of practice groups within the departments, around what do they want to achieve for this financial year? How are we going to do it? Who's going to do that? Who's gonna take that forward? Um, and, you know, even just sort of looking at those in comparison to, to a couple of years ago, there's so much more detail. The level of activity that the team is suggesting and working on is elevated, I think.

Our CMO has the mantra, "Fewer, bigger, better," which we all try and live by a little bit, which is, you know, let's not do loads of stuff. Let's do some really targeted things. Let's do them really well. Let's do them. Let's get the most impact from them, and let's bring in others across the firm so that it's sort of more collaborative and impactful. So the BD plans, yeah, big priority. And then lastly, something that's still sort of ongoing for me, and, and probably will be for some time, is bringing in something which I think underpins success across, you know, success or not across all of these things, is a meaningful approach to CRM So of course that means the system that you use, but also the, the processes and the procedures that you have within the firm around client data.

So, I think if you do it right, you know, you can be really targeted, you can understand clients and their preferences, you can join the dots across the firm on who knows who, and you can just be a lot more strategic and impactful about  the stuff that you're putting out there. Like all these things, obviously that's it's a bit of a slow project, but we're getting there. And I'm a firm believer that you don't, you know, you shouldn't wait for perfection, before doing anything. So it's a big project though, and it will take time, but I think it will make a big difference to how we do things and, and the success that we have.

Will: Wow. So there's a lot, there's a lot of things in there. I'm gonna try and summarize. Well, it so it sounds like you sort of reset, if you like, the hierarchy, which would've, or the framework within the, the BD team. So I mean, that I'm imagining made things like appraisals a lot easier because then people know exactly what they need to do to move up- 

Helen: Exactly

Will: To the next level. So that's, that's the first thing. Then it was more around, um, sort of the training side of things and upskilling everyone, which I haven't seen Gail Jaffa for a while. I do need to get in touch with her. The lovely Gail Jaffea. She's brilliant at -

Helen: She’s great.

Will: So then that's that part. And then it was around building those BD plans, super important at firms. Getting those in. And then it was really all around making client data more meaningful, i.e. getting the CRM and getting people to use it. So there's sort of four key pillars, if you like, that you've implemented. So on, there must have been, I mean, I imagine how people would've embraced certain elements of it, and most of it hopefully, but was there any internal resistance? And if there was, where was it in those four different things, and how did you navigate the resistance?

Helen: Well, we're still very much at the start of the CRM journey, so ask me that question in a year and I'm sure there will be plenty of resistance. But I hope not. I hope if we can do it right, then we won't get as much resistance, and they'll see the sort of bigger picture. It's funny, I think only when you look back, you know, and I, I sort of have these types of conversations, do you see, like the change that there's been. There was- it wasn't a sort of right, you know, where these are the big changes that we're gonna make across BD. It was more of a kind of natural, organic evolution of things. I certainly think that I mean, certainly from the fee-earners perspective, resistance, I feel like actually we've had, for the most part, we've actually had the, the opposite.

People have been hungry for an improved approach to business development. Some of them have come from other firms where they've seen other things. They've got different ideas. They wanna bring those to the table. They really value the team. We've got a great business development team, and the fee-earners really value them, and they respect their opinions and, you know, for the most part, when we suggest something, they'll really listen. Are they, you know, super excited about filling in a business case when they wanna spend some money? No. Do they try to get around that and not do that? Yes, of course, they do. I suppose it's my job and the team's job to make that as easy as possible, and to keep sort of holding them to account, and doing those, those kinds of annoying admin processes that sit behind things.

But, you know, where we've had to push back on things or say we can't do that or we wanna do it in a different way, for the most part, they've been quite receptive to that. We've got a marketing partner structure as well that I think really helps. And it goes back to the culture point as well, right? You know, it's a really decent firm. The people there are really decent people, and they, you know, they understand what we're trying to achieve. But we do have a marketing partner in each of them, or one or two marketing partners in each of the departments. And what that means is that my team can have somebody to work alongside at that partner level that is the champion for what we're trying to achieve within each of the departments.

And they can help us with that messaging. It's a peer for the other partners to sort of listen to and to, to kind of help galvanize things. And equally, if they actually think that's not gonna work for the department, they can talk to us about that. We can change things and make it, make it fit. So I think that, that's, that's been really, really helpful to navigate any resistance that we have come across as well.

Will: Brilliant. You mentioned it, and I'm gonna maybe put some numbers to it that hopefully are correct. But Fladgate has been growing quite rapidly in the market. I was looking at the figures and you hit over 100 million in terms of turnover. Which I believe is nearly double in five years, isn't it? So it's a brilliant growth trajectory. 

Helen: Yeah.

Will: And up year on year, maybe 16, 17%. I saw the figures, if that's about right. So brilliant results. How are you sort of measuring? I mean, are you taking all the glory for that, Helen, since you joined or-

Helen: Oh, yeah. It's all down to me. Yeah, yeah. Even pre my joining.

Will: Yeah. You set the scene previously.

Helen: Exactly, yeah.

Will: Can you share any examples, I know it's probably hard to do, but can you share success examples over the, the, the time that you've been there of where BD's really helped with that and how you can measure that?

Helen: Yeah. you know, it's part, it was part of the appeal, you know, absolutely undoubtedly part of the appeal for, for joining for me was how ambitious Fladgate is, how well they're doing, we're doing, and it's, you know, it's fantastic to be part of that and, you know, it's not showing any, any signs of slowing down, that's for sure. So, I think for us, you know, obviously we've had quite a lot of lateral hires both in terms of individual partners, but also we hired, you know, a big group of partners from Memory Crystal,this time last year. So, I think the BD team on the ground within the departments, the crucial to the success is that integration of those, of those lateral hires, understanding their capabilities.

You know, they've brought us some fantastic, you know, additional skill sets, amazing clients that they've brought across. So you know, my team kind of works with them to understand that, to get them involved in BD initiatives, to hear what works for them, to build things around them, to in- involve them in the BD planning, all of those kinds of things. I think that's really, really important to make sure that we integrate them successfully. I think, you know, there always has been and always will be a difficulty around measuring the impact of marketing and business development activity. You know, that will always be the case, and there's no kind of magic answer to that.

But certainly, you know, going back to the BD planning point, if you've got clear BD plans in place and you stick to them,  that's where, that's the road to success in my opinion, and being quite, um, strict and rigorous around debriefs and analyzing return on investment to the extent that you can of the activities that you've done. And again, you know, coming back to the resistance point, this is the point that, you know, i it's not the most fun part of the process for anyone when, you know, you've, you've just spent a load of money sending some partners overseas or to a conference or hosting something here, whatever it might be.

You know, you've worked, you've all worked really hard to get that done. The partners are exhausted from doing it. The last thing anyone wants to do is to get into a room and be like, "Right, let's really go through in detail how that went, what we could have done better, who you spoke to." People, everyone's just like, "Oh, you know, enough. Let's move on to the next." But it's really important to do that, and my team are really great at doing that, you know. And that's something that, you know, I'd love to say that I've introduced, but they've always been really good at doing that. And really understanding what, what worked well, what didn't, who, who you, who did you see, how are you gonna follow up, holding people to account, and looking at that next time.

You know, next time that that event comes up or that activity comes up or something similar comes up, you know, referring to that and being like, "Right- Last time you said you were gonna do A, B, and C. Have you done it? Uh, we also said that this didn't go so well, so why are we suggesting that we do it again?” You know, just constantly kind of challenging those, those, those things and, and, you know, pushing to be better every time. Not overly kind of specific examples, but they're the kinds of things that I think are where BD can really add value. You know, you can get BD that, that just sort of do, you know, do what, what we've always done and just go along with things.

But are you gonna move the dial? Hate that phrase. Are you going to change things? Are you gonna improve things? Probably not, if you adopt that approach. So I firmly believe, like, constantly pushing ourselves to be better and challenging what we've done before and how we can be better next time, I think that's the key to it. And as I say, integration of those, those brilliant lateral hires that we've had.

Will: You mention it there in terms of, you know, analyzing activities and what does work and what doesn't. Mm. Have you got any examples of things that, you know, that haven't worked, that you have now fallen by the wayside 'cause they don't fit into the strategy anymore, they're not, they're not worth doing for you guys?

Helen: Yeah. Yeah, we have actually. There's been a few of those. And sometimes that's been partners saying, "Do you know what? That was great, but I'm not sure that it really, you know, achieves what we need it to, so next time actually I'm not gonna put that forward." Or, "Let's, let's do it, but let's not sponsor," or, "Let's do it, but let's do it in a different way. Let's go light on it. Let's..." You know, sometimes it comes from them and sometimes it comes from us when we say, "Actually, do you know what? This is costing too much money, and it doesn't fit in with, you know, with our strategic goals." And you know, again, having those BD plans in place helps you be able to have those conversations.

And bringing in the marketing partner as, as, as needed to, to sort of back us on those conversations is always helpful. Yeah, we've, we've had to say no to various things, and that's, you know, that's never welcomed. That's not what people wanna hear, obviously. But I think, again, coming back to the culture, coming back to the trust that the firm has in the BD team and, and the individuals within it, people do tend to.

They know that where we're coming from, they know that we're trying to improve things, and spending money on things and time on things that don't really bring results, it's not, you know, it's not, it's not where success is. So yeah, we have, yeah we have had to say no to certain things. But for the most part, I think, you know, yeah, it's a difficult conversation initially, but people move on. People, you know, people are grown up, so they move on. And, you know, not always. Sometimes we've had to capitulate and say, "Right, okay, well, we'll do it, but we'll do it differently this year, and we'll, we'll really gonna, you know, scrutinize it next year." But of course, you know, part of the role is saying no to certain things, and that's just, that's just how it is.

Will: Good stuff. And then, I mean, you mentioned I think off-camera previously, you don't wait for perfection in terms of technology, and we, you talked about the CRM. I mean, are you able to share a bit more about what's on the roadmap on that side of things?

Helen: Yeah. I mean, I think if you're waiting for perfection in anything actually, you know, we'll never do anything, would we? Yeah, for CRM specifically, we're on a very old system. So we use it for the basics. We use it for event mailing lists, but not anything more than that. We don't analyze any of the data that comes out of it particularly other than, you know, the typical kind of bounce backs and all that sort of stuff. We're not the gr- the best at, you know, adding in activities that happen. We don't really use automation. So there's lots of things that, the world's moved on certainly quite significantly since this was, uh, since this was put in place, and it's certainly not my background, CRM, but I know, you know, from the various conferences and the conversations that, um, conferences that I go to and the conversations that I have, and just, you know, being a human that lives in the modern world, you know that things exist that are far more sophisticated than that.

So we put together a project team across, business development and IT, and we looked at, um, various... And this, this sort of started, before I joined, but we've sort of expanded it and ramped it up a little bit in the last year or so. We spent a long time going out to the market, having conversations with different vendors about different products, seeing different things, having demos, all those kinds of things as you would expect. We've decided to stay with our current provider, but upgrade to the latest version of the system, uh, which I think will be far more sophisticated, far more automated, and we're also going to invest in an additional system that will help with cleansing and also sort of ongoing ensuring of data quality, data integrity.

So not just a kind of one cleanse approach, but a constant automated cleansing of, of data and improvement of data. We're still very much in the early stages, but I think, you know, I'm... I think it will really transform our approach, frankly. Yeah, so I'm excited about what it will bring. I think it will be, it will help us be more intelligent around our client targeting. It will help us track relationship strength, engagement. it will help us be more joined up around who knows who, who's targeting who, so we can avoid duplication, be a bit more strategic, and just understand our client and our intermediaries' preferences. What do they wanna hear about from us and, and how can we make sure that we're, you know, we're, we're sticking to that and we're aligning to that rather than, you know, them, them never hearing about anything from us.

And I think that where I think CRM has fallen down in the past in law firms, and I don't, you know, I don't know what it's like in other industries, but for me, there's an over-reliance on partners and fee earners generally manually entering information. And as much as we can all, you know, moan about how engaged they are or otherwise in that process, they're busy people. The reality is they're busy people. They, you know, they're not going to spend time, you know, thinking, "I've just got back from a client meeting. I must go in and log into that system and update the notes." And, you know, some will but, but some won't. So for me, it's about automating that process and asking for as little as possible from the fee earners. And that's what we're, we're trying to achieve with it. Make it as kind of as slick as possible, and hopefully have somebody join us that can, that can run that and look after that for us and can be a specialist in, in CRM. So as I say, early days, but I, if it goes even a bit like how I'm hoping it will, then I think it will be transformative for us.

Will: A live job description application. Yes. Straight to Helen, please. Cool. Yeah. And, and CRM, yeah, is ongoing, isn't it really? There is behavioral change going on without them. Hopefully, if you automate it all, without them knowing too much, uh, from a partner perspective. So good luck with that. Thank you very much, Helen. Amazingly, we're down to the quick-fire questions. So first of all, what are you currently listening to?

Helen: I'm currently listening to The Rest is Entertainment podcast. I'm a bit addicted to that at the moment. I like The News Agents as well, but at the moment, it's all just a bit heavy. And so I like a little bit of light relief with Mr. Osman, on The Rest is Entertainment. I love it. Yeah, a really interesting kind of behind-the-scenes look at the world of TV and media and yeah, I find it fascinating.

Will: Yeah. A bit of escapism. Can't  have enough-

Helen: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. A bit of light relief. Although, sometimes when you hear about the n- the things that go on behind the scenes in entertainment, actually, that's pretty, that's pretty awful and pretty heavy-going as well. Yeah. But, still very interesting.

Will: Yeah. We won't get into that.

Helen: No, no, no.

Will: This is quite a hard one, I always think, straight off the bat. What's the best piece of advice that you have ever received?

Helen: Yeah, I thought about this long and hard because I suppose from a professional perspective, it is probably, I will it was said much more succinctly, to me, but the meaning is essentially you don't, you, you won't develop in your career and climb up the ladder by just doing more. You can't just take more stuff on. You have to sort of choose what's gonna get your time and what isn't. Where you've been in- hired to do a specific role, what of the countless things that will land in your inbox and land on your to-do list, what is really going to help you deliver that thing that the business has asked you to do, and what isn't?

And what you're gonna say no to, what are you going to give, you know, a bit of your time to, but not, but not invest in it heavily, and what's really gonna take your time. I still massively struggle with that. I like to get my hands dirty and get involved in stuff, but that's something that I try and kind of keep at the forefront of my mind, if you can't just keep taking on more. You have to sort of have boundaries with your time and be strict with yourself as well.

Will: Yeah. It's almost like that list, isn't it, where you have, "Okay, I could put 20 things on the list." But actually, you're never gonna do all 20. You just gotta focus on maybe the top three or five. Get, nail those instead.

Helen: Yeah.

Will: Yeah.

Helen: Well, and you're setting yourself up to fail, aren't you, if you try and do all 20? You're always gonna log off for the day feeling like you haven't achieved anything. Whereas if you're a bit more, a bit more realistic about the top one or two things, that day, that week, that month, that quarter, whatever, that's a bit more achievable.

Will: Brilliant. For our listeners, what book or resource would you recommend to other BD leaders in, in the field?

Helen: To be honest, I can't say I've ever been a fan of any kind of business or leadership books. I've bought a ton of them. I've spent too much money on them. I've read bits of some of them. For me, I get my kind of information, my advice from my network, from a network of people that I trust and that I respect, that do similar jobs but will, you know, but have different perspectives, will challenge me. So it's not necessarily a resource you can kind of go and buy off a shelf. I think it's, you know, way more impactful, way more valuable than any kind of business, business book, frankly.

Will: Well, it's a resource, isn't it? And actually, it's a clever one to lean on. Trusted advisors, peers.

Helen: Yeah.

Will: Yeah.

Helen: Yeah, people that know you, people that know the world that you're in. You know, you can, you can read a book from a kind of, you know, a big name in business, but, you know, how do you relate that to the world that we're in? It's quite difficult.

Will: You're super busy. What is your favorite way to unwind after a super busy day?

Helen: I do love to go to the gym, but I tend to do that sort of thing in the mornings, and that's my kind of focus, but unwinding after a busy day, it's a glass of wine. It's a glass of wine every time. It's not the healthiest, but it helps me. And, you know, sitting with a nice crisp, cold glass of white wine Yeah, that's what it does for me.

Will: Especially now the sun's out, we can-

Helen: Absolutely Well, it might move to rosé now that the sun's out.

Will:Yeah, exactly. Good. I like the transparency and honesty just 'cause-

Helen: Yeah, you gotta be honest, haven't you?

Will: Yeah. Mine would be a beer. Where's your favorite place to stay and visit, and why?

Helen: So definitely a place called Milford-on-Sea in the New Forest. It brings together all of my favorite things. So it's sort of, it's part of the forest and you can drive, you know, not very far to be in the heart of the forest, but it's also, as the name would suggest, on the beach. And so you've got the best of both worlds when, from that perspective. And as I say, it brings together everything that I love, such as animals, the beach, great walks, nice pubs, you know, all that kind of stuff. So come rain or shine, it- that's my favorite place. My in-laws had a place down there for a long time, and so we would go there and stay there and visit it, you know, three or four times a year.

It's super relaxed, it's slow paced, everyone's really friendly. Most of the time you can't get phone reception, which is just bliss. Um, and I've got very, like, very, very many happy memories down there. It's my happy place.

Will: Cool. Okay, thank you very much. The last question really is for, aimed at the listeners specifically. For people listening that are in your role or trying to step up into a head of BD role, trying to build a plan that works in practice, what, if it was nailed down to one piece of advice, what advice would you give them?

Helen: Keep it simple is probably my advice. I've seen a lot of BD plans over the years, and some of them have been so overly complicated, you know, I can't get my head around them, let alone a time-poor fee earner who, um, you know, who, who doesn't look at these things day in, day out. So keep it simple. Set out three things that you want to achieve, how you'll do it, and crucially, who is going to take it forward. And if I could have a sort of bonus piece of advice it would be to use that plan at every opportunity. Don't sort of, you know, spend, you know, weeks at the beginning of the year working on it, and then, you know, phew, that's done, let's move on and go back to business as usual.

That plan should guide everything that you do. Take it to every meeting that you go to. Refer to it in every conversation that you, all the conversations that you have with the team. Make it transparent. Make sure everyone in the department knows what, what the plan is, and make sure that the action's, you know, driven forward. Take it with you, drive them forward in every meeting. Question people on where they've got to with certain things. It's your roadmap for the whole year, so it should come with you to everything. And that means that when you work on it next year, it shouldn't be too difficult, it should just be an evolution of, of, of what you're already doing.

Obviously, don't be afraid to review it and tweak it as you need to, but, you know, there's a reason that you identified these priorities with the partners at the beginning of the year. Stick to them. So yeah, so I know it's not one. I like to break the rules a little bit, but keep it simple and use it at every opportunity.

Will: Thank you very much, Helen, for giving us your time, and have a brilliant day.

Helen: No problem. Thank you so much.

Charlie: You can follow the Passle CMO Series Podcast on your preferred podcast platform. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time