In this special episode, we’re joined by a group of incredible leaders from the legal marketing industry who reflect on the mentors and pivotal figures that have influenced their careers.
They share their experiences, offering valuable insights on how embracing bold innovation and building respect and understanding are key to shaping the future of legal marketing.
Featured Guests:
- John Eix - Director of Business Development and Marketing, Crowe & Dunlevy
- Amanda Schneider - Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer, Epstein Becker Green
- William McLaughlin - Director of Marketing, McNees Wallace & Nurick
- Maura Brandt - Chief Marketing Officer, Crowell & Moring
- Erika Galarneau - Marketing and Business Development Manager, Cades Schutte
- Azeema Batchelor - Director of Business Development, Wiley Rein
- Kim Kaine - Marketing & Business Development Manager, Hawley Troxell
- Despina Kartson - Chief Marketing Officer, Baker Hostetler
- Lora Wegman- Marketing and Communications Director, Thompson Coburn
- Norm Rubenstein - Managing Director of Client Development, O'Melveny & Myers
- Cynthia Voth - Chief Client Officer, Miller Nash
- Jillian Kanter McKenna - Director of Marketing and Business Development, Verrill Law
- Suzette Bradbury - Director of Practice Group Marketing, Cozen O'Connor
Tune in to this Thanksgiving special for an inspiring conversation filled with lessons on the power of innovation, kindness, and mentorship in legal marketing.
Don't miss Part 1 and Part 3 of the CMO Series Podcast Thanksgiving Special.
Transcription:
Charlie: Welcome to the second installment of this very special Thanksgiving edition of the CMO Series podcast. To celebrate this season of thanks, we caught up with friends across the legal marketing industry to reflect on the people who have influenced their careers. These incredible guests impart their knowledge and experience to help inspire the next generation of legal marketing leaders. Now, there's no denying that technology has revolutionized legal marketing. Our first group of guests shares their heartfelt thanks for the pivotal figures in their careers and encourages others to embrace innovation and adopt bold, forward-thinking approaches to take the industry forward.
John: My name is John Eix. I am the Director of Business Development and Marketing for Crowe Dunlevy. We're based in Oklahoma. I would have to say Jean Hobby. Jean Hobby was the partner in charge when I was at PwC for the technology practice. She later became the CFO, but she really did a wonderful job in helping shape my business development skills and helping me realize what was important from a business development standpoint. I really want to tip my hat to her. I think she's the person that got me started. I'd also like to say thank you to all the in-house counsel here in Oklahoma. We started an initiative as a firm called In-House Oklahoma, and they've been really supportive. The goal is to give them an opportunity to collaborate and talk amongst themselves about the issues they and their departments confront. One piece of advice I would give my colleagues in the legal field is: don't think like a law firm. So many of the things we do have been done for decades. Where the rubber hits the road is when you do things that are outside the box—take some risks. Obviously, continue to do the things that make the firm successful, but also try something different. Don't do the same things over and over again.
Amanda: I'm Amanda Schneider, the Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer of Epstein-Becker Green. In today's rapidly evolving landscape, I'm most thankful for the privilege of working in an industry that is not only dynamic but also brimming with potential. We are witnessing an extraordinary transformation, particularly with the advent of artificial intelligence and the modernization of the delivery of legal services. This evolution is reshaping how law firms operate and interact with their clients, offering unprecedented opportunities for business professionals like myself to contribute meaningfully to the field.
Will: Hi, I'm Will McLaughlin. I'm the Director of Marketing at McNees Wallace & Nurick. One key figure I’m grateful for is Hanim Hamzah, a KPMG Law Asia-Pacific Regional Leader. Her leadership style taught me how to be a strong manager by emphasizing collaboration, active listening, team feedback, and fostering an open environment for new ideas. She created an outstanding work culture that championed total wellness, ensuring we thrived inside and outside of work. A special shout-out to Briana Hallett Stiff, the McNees Director of BD. Her BD acumen and clarity of thought are outstanding. I'm grateful for her help getting into McNees and the rest of the BD and marketing team here. One piece of advice would be: don’t be afraid to question established methods. Legal marketing has many traditions, but impactful campaigns often come from trying something bold. Stay data-driven but trust your instinct to push boundaries and innovate.
Maura: Maura Brandt, and I'm the Chief Marketing Officer at Crowell & Moring. At the end of October, I lost my father. And I share this not only because of how grateful I am to have been his daughter, but also because he is responsible for my career in law firm marketing. When I moved to Kansas City in late 88, it was to pursue a new career opportunity, which ultimately didn't materialize. But it actually worked out great because my first call was to my dad. Who was an antitrust litigator, first with the Department of Justice and then at Baker and Hostetler. And he immediately connected me to friends and colleagues in the law firm community, contacts that he had developed, either through cases he had handled or ABA participation or his involvement in the bar more generally. And as the result of this conversation, I landed a wonderful opportunity in what was then an emerging area of law firm operations, marketing.
And my first day at my first law firm, I knew that this was a job that I was going to love and I have ever since. So I'd actually love to give a shout out to my amazing team here at Kroll and to all the business partners with whom I am so fortunate to work, including in areas like recruiting, knowledge management, client and business intelligence, and public relations. I'm grateful not only for their experience and expertise, but their kindness, their empathy, and their true sense of partnership and collaboration. I feel gratitude every day for the relationships that I have developed with amazing colleagues representing different segments of the diverse law firm marketing community. And I feel that whenever I need help, I can always turn to my colleagues and my industry contacts to find answers, get safe counsel, and sometimes just listen when I'm wrestling with an issue or need a sounding board. So really, it's a big shout out to all the people who support me and help me and for whom I'm so fortunate to have those relationships. Yes, I would say that your position title shouldn't be a limitation, but an invitation to be innovative and inquisitive and to push into uncharted territory.
Erika: I'm Erika Galarneau. I am the marketing and business development manager at Cades Schutte LLP. We are Hawaii's largest law firm. I actually have two people that I need to give credit to because they really took my legal marketing career above and beyond. The first is my mentor, Harry M. Beavis. He's currently at McGuire Wood. But when I first started my career at OREC in Tokyo, he actually came to train me. I was still a junior marketer, and we really got along together. We had a great working relationship. So when he actually went back to New York, where he was based, he needed a coordinator to work with him, and he invited me to come to New York and work at Orrick..So without him, I would not have made the big jump from Tokyo to New York and I am forever grateful for him to get the band rolling for that. The second person I need to recognize is actually also someone I worked with at Orrick first. Her name is Betsy Donovan. She currently heads the U.S. marketing at Withers Bergman or Withers Worldwide. But she was amazing. She was also a mentor, but also just a great leader as a chief marketing officer at Orrick to the point where when she moved to Withers, I still was keen to work with her. So that was a big reason why I moved from Orrick to Withers while I was in New York. I would love to give a shout out to my co-chair of LMA's social and digital media SIG, Julie Fisher at Bush and Bush. She has been instrumental in taking our SIG and starting new initiatives we didn’t have before, for example, for our 21-day social media challenge this year which is our signature event. She was the one who suggested we make it a task-based challenge rather than giving reading or listening assignments. So I'm actually rolling off my role as co-chair next year, but I'm really excited to see what she's going to bring to the SIG going forward. I know we're planning one final program, which is an AI session together with the Amartek SIG of Alive.So I'm very, very excited to see what she's going to put on for that. The lesson that Betsy Donovan of Withers actually taught me that I would love to share with everyone, and this might be more for junior marketers, is: Attend everything. Attend every social event that's open for attorneys and staff because people will listen to you more or take your advice more if they see who you are. So I have been doing that. For example, you know, I attend all the Halloween parties, all the summer picnics, all the social events, because I think it's really, really important that attorneys see who you are.
Charlie: Earning respect and trust often begins with the simplest action. In this segment, our guests emphasize the value of hard work and treating others with respect as the foundation for building strong relationships and cohesive teams. First up, Azeema Batchelor, Director of BD at Wiley Rein, reflects on the influential figures who have shaped her career and shares valuable advice for those looking to grow and thrive.
Azeema: Early in my career, when I was actually a third-year law student, I worked at a small law firm in midtown Manhattan, and it wasn't anything special. We did insurance defense, a lot of medical malpractice work, a little bit of just things that came in from the neighborhood. But one of the partners there, when we were working together, said to me, Zeema, you need to know that no one is ever going to care as much about your career as you do. And what she meant really was you need to take ownership of your career and where you want things to go. Wiley is just a very special place. A lot of us have worked in other firms before coming here, especially on the legal marketing and business development team. And we really enjoy the fact that we have this very collaborative and collegial culture. And we also recognize that people are human outside of the office and have other things going on in their lives. So the first person I have to shout out that I'm currently collaborating with is actually Diana Corson, our CMO. So Diana started at the firm... I believe it was three weeks before I went out on maternity leave.It was April of 2020, when all of what that entailed about what was going on in the world.So here she was, she came on as CMO. She also had somebody who was a senior member of her team that was going to overlap with her for all of three or four weeks and then be out for a few months.And she did it so well. The folks here, and especially Diana, really helped me figure out the whole work-life balance thing that was shifting in a tremendous way. The whole world was changing. There was so much going on. And I think there really was the potential for everything to go south, quite frankly. And the fact that we worked well together, that I've subsequently had a few more leaves, I think that our team is amazing. We have really worked hard to build a lovely team with a great culture. And it really does start at the top. One of the things that I was thinking, it's actually three pieces, but I will say it all together. It's work hard, be nice, and help others.
Kim Kaine: Kim Kaine, I oversee the marketing and business development for Hawley Troxell. I have to say there’s two. And there were two different times in my career. So the first one was Barry Henry when I worked for Trammell Crow Company in Dallas. I was a young woman, no management experience, and he just took me under his wing. And he involved me in different meetings. He took me to different networking events. He just trained me, but never micromanaged. He was just a wonderful, wonderful human being. And the second one, after 15 years in Dallas, moved to Nashville and Whitfield-Hamilton. And again, I left a career of 15 years to sort of a brand new demographics, brand new area. And again, just was a friend and guided me and was there for me. Never again micromanaged me and was just there for me. I think both those men I just really, to this day, admire and really consider them part of my success in my career. I have to say my whole management team. We're a small group. There's only five of us. We have our CEO and four different managers. And we're a team. And I don't mean to make that sound cliche, but we are a team. And we back each other. We help each other. Even if it's not our job description, we're there for each other. And I really have to say I'm very thankful for my team. A couple of things. One of the things to have a sense of humor and cut yourself some slack. You know, it's just sometimes we take ourselves way too serious and you just have to cut ourselves some slack and you just have to just not take things to heart. Again, have a sense of humor and be good to the people around you. I sincerely believe that. Be a team, be kind, be good to one another and care about one another. We're at work more often than we're home and we really should treat them as family.
Despina: I'm Despina Kartsen, and I'm the Chief Marketing Officer with Baker Hostetler in New York City. Looking back on my career at who I'm particularly grateful for and how they've impacted my journey,I would say that I'm particularly grateful for two law firm leaders that I've worked with who mentored me in my roles at their firms.They provided a lot of valuable insight about the firm, guided me through thorny issues, helped me navigate complex issues and internal politics.And I would say it was so beneficial to have this insight, which was really based on their deep institutional knowledge of their firms and getting this type of guidance and coaching on how to approach things in a way that was consistent with the culture of the firms was so useful.They also had a level of stature and respect in their firms that helped me gain credibility and paved the way for buy-in on projects and initiatives.And these leaders also afforded me a platform to develop new programs, programs like client development or client feedback programs, which were new ideas to the firms, and their seal of approval helped pave the way for successful initiatives that were positively received by the attorneys and the firms. Is there someone I'm currently collaborating with who deserves a special shout-out this Thanksgiving? I would say that there isn't a single individual, but a group of colleagues that I currently work with who deserve a special shout-out and thanks this Thanksgiving. Thank you. I have an impressive team of really talented BD marketing professionals at Baker Hostetler, and each one of them brings their skills, their hard work, and their dedication to work every single day. So I would have to say that I'm really grateful for all of my colleagues, and in particular, those I work with daily who come up with great ideas, they work tirelessly on projects that are sometimes above and beyond their core responsibilities, and frankly, they make all of us shine. If I could share one valuable lesson or piece of advice with others in the legal marketing field, my advice is to be generous with your time and what you give to others personally and professionally, what you give to your organization,and what you give to the legal marketing community. What you give of yourself to others and how you make them feel is not only really appreciated, but I think it always comes back to you in an unexpected and positive way. Over the course of my career, I've had a number of people thank me for something I did for them years ago, and often it's a small thing that I didn't remember or certainly didn't think that they would remember. It's like my favorite quote from Maya Angelou, “People will forget what you said. They will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel.”
Lora: My name is Lora Wegman. I'm the Marketing and Communications Director at Thompson Coburn. So as I think back on my career, someone who I'm grateful for that has really had an impact on me over the years is actually someone from my journalism career preceding my time in legal marketing. And that was one of my first editors, Jim Robertson. And he really made a difference by putting a lot of faith and trust in me at a relatively young age, which was not only a confidence boost,but it taught me how important it is to kind of step up and take responsibility, regardless of what level you're at, and not be afraid to speak your mind. So there are two people I've been working with a lot this year who I think I'd love to shout out this Thanksgiving. And those are my colleagues here at Thompson Coburn, Amanda Lindley and Sarah Stoces. They're my co-directors on our marketing and BD team here. And we've had such a busy year with projects and onboarding some great talent on our team. And Amanda and Sarah have both been such fantastic collaborators and team players. And they've been with the firm much longer than I have. So they've been really generous with their time, sharing their previous experiences, working together on solutions.So that's who I'm grateful for this year. One valuable lesson that I think I've learned is that it helps to just treat other people well.Not only to avoid disagreements or conflict, but I think it really impacts productivity and morale, the way you treat people. So much conflict is just based on people not treating others respectfully.So if you try to look at a situation from the other person's perspective, that can go a long way. And also just generally being friendly and responsive is not that hard to do. And I think it really, really helps you progress towards your goals.
Norm: I'm Norm Rubenstein. I'm the Managing Director of Client Development for O'Melveny & Myers.The first question is that you are asking for a key figure that clearly sort of acknowledges that you recognize there are probably myriad key figures in the life of most of us in the legal marketing community. So picking one is difficult, but I chose Peter Zeughauser, who for more than 30 years has been a collaborator, a partner, but most importantly, one of my best friends. One of the things about our legal marketing community writ large is I think we engaged in common professional activities tend to form friendships - meaningful, social, almost familial relationships with the people we get to know and work with. And so when I look back on what is now over three decades as a professional marketer in the legal space, and I think about all the people who have mentored or helped shape my thinking about our work or the profession, Peter stands out because I think he's unparalleledly smart, very strategic, but most of all, he is one of the most generous people I know, particularly with his thoughts and ideas. So he has been a tremendous person in my professional life, and at Thanksgiving, I can't help but reflect on how much I've benefited from that relationship. Instead of a single individual, I'd like to shout out the entire client development team at O'Melveny. These are the people that I work with in 18 offices and multiple continents across many time zones, and they are, in my estimation, extraordinary at what they do. And more importantly, they are cohesive and willing collaborators. So that anything that we do is enriched by the inclusion of and contributions of all members of the team. And as someone who spent many years working either by himself or in small groups as a consultant, it's almost hard to express the joy you feel when you look around and you see this many talented people at the peak of their professional careers, sitting around a table, enriching the experience. And so I nominate the Client Development Team at O'Melveny for that thanks. Today, most of my work is that sort of odd combination of management and leadership. And my responsibility is to make sure that all of these people that do all the things that I used to do have the resources and ability to focus on those tasks.I can't do their work. Even if I were qualified to do their work, it would be a mistake to micromanage people who are that sophisticated and that good at what they do. So my professional gratification or satisfaction comes from making sure that I'm helping facilitate what they do, but not getting in the way. And I think that's an important lesson for marketers to learn, particularly if they aspire to work for larger firms with larger marketing departments, that you have to be able to derive your satisfaction from the major accomplishments of the entire team and not think of them as individual things you put your stamp on.
Charlie: Next up, Cynthia Voth, Chief Client Officer at Miller Nash, shares her appreciation to the friends and supporters who have shaped her career.
Cynthia: I guess when I think back, first getting back involved in legal marketing, I'm incredibly grateful for leaders like Adam Severson, who inspired me and was a huge supporter, Jill Weber. And then I also was a leader alongside a number of presidents like Jill Hughes and Andy Laver, Michelle Friends, Natalie Domp, Rebecca Natowski, a bunch of folks who just are really lovely human beings who not only were great role models for me, but just supporters, which I think is so important. And I have a ton of gratitude to them for the care and the love that they gave me and support as I was building my career. So I'm currently on the West Region board for LMA, and I get to work alongside a couple of just remarkable people, Jasmine Triodicari, Megan Spradling, Mohib Qidwai, and more, but just a wonderful group of really thoughtful people who put a lot of cheer into everything they do professionally and personally. One, I think just to be kind to all the folks that you work with.
The world is a hard place. Our work is demanding and I think that bringing kindness to others makes the work easier and helps people care more about it. And two, to take care of yourself. It is demanding to do our work. And I think making sure that you're taking time for yourself and keeping yourself healthy is critical to being able to do great work.
Charlie: Jillian Kanter McKenna, Director of Marketing and Business Development at Verill Law, joins the CMO Series podcast to spotlight the influential figures and mentors in her career journey and shares her top tips for finding satisfaction and happiness in the industry.
Jillian: Looking back on my career, there have been a number of great mentors and inspirational leaders who have given me the opportunity to challenge myself, to build my confidence, and to have a career that I'm truly proud of. As a younger female professional, I was lucky to have so many successful female mentors from early on, the first of which I would be remiss to not mention, who was my first true business mentor way back when I was an intern during college at a large PR firm in Boston. My mentor there, Colleen, was the first one who really exposed me to PR and marketing in a real business setting, and she helped to train me, but she also helped to develop my passion for communications, and that's really what has shaped the path to what I do today. Another professional that has impacted my career journey was a professor that I actually had back in undergraduate school, Kate. She actually followed up with me years later, recognizing my accomplishments and potential and gave me a unique opportunity to actually publish a book chapter on my career journey at that point and to reflect on and celebrate a campaign that I had worked on for a nonprofit and a different PR role that I had and that I was very proud of. Through authoring the chapter and subsequently speaking to college students throughout the U.S. Who had read the story, it really helped to reinvigorate my passion for what I do and propelled me forward to pursue more opportunities. And then fast forwarding to my role at Verill today, I really need to recognize the many leaders and attorneys that I'm grateful to work with every day and that have given me the opportunity to expand my skill set far beyond the traditional communications, marketing, and business development, but over the past nearly decade with the firm, but to really be involved in so much of the firm's growth and strategic direction. I'm so grateful for their confidence in me, the opportunities that each of my bosses and mentors along the way have given me, and continue to give me with our current leadership today. My small but very mighty marketing and business development team at Verill deserves a very special shout out this Thanksgiving. I am extremely grateful for each member of the team, their hard work, and the unique and valuable perspectives that each brings. I'm also thankful for the collaborative nature of the firm more generally and each member of the administrative team at Verill. We all play an important role in the firm's ongoing growth and success, whether we're looking at succession planning, client service, practice development, and so much more. We really couldn't accomplish what we have without continuing to collaborate across departments, and I truly believe that we are stronger together. I have two valuable pieces of advice for others in the marketing and business development field. The first is to remember to celebrate and recognize your own success and accomplishments. We are so often behind the scenes and focused on raising the profile of our firms and their lawyers that we sometimes forget the importance of pausing to celebrate our own accomplishments and those of our more immediate colleagues. This not only helps with satisfaction in your own role, but also keeps the momentum and drive going so you can continue to succeed and do great work. The second piece of advice I have is to never stop growing and challenging yourself. You can achieve more than you think you can, so keep pushing yourself and you'll be amazed at how far you can go.
Charlie: Last but certainly not least, Suzette Bradbury, Director of Practice Group Marketing at Cozen O'Connor, expresses her gratitude to the key mentors and collaborators who have guided her journey. She also offers thoughtful piles of wisdom to inspire us all this Thanksgiving.
Suzette: The team at K&L Gates, I joined K&L Gates in the early 2000s, and it was a time of remarkable growth and expansion for the firm.When I joined the firm in Pittsburgh, it was domestic and very much focused on Pennsylvania with some satellite offices. Over the course of my three years with K&L, under the chairmanship of Pete Kalis, it expanded around the world. And the K&L Gates team, which included Clara Boza, the Chief Marketing Officer, Rachel Hayes, the Chief Business Development Officer, Nathan Darling, who was one of my contemporaries in the business development team and many others too numerous to mention, really showed me what professional business development and marketing looked like as the firm expanded and as it stretched its tentacles around the world. Beyond that, there are several other people I'd like to acknowledge. One is Amy Knapp, who I first worked with at Jaffe. And Jay Jaffe himself was an incredible figure and leader in the legal marketing community. The two people on my team at Cozen O'Connor who I would like to acknowledge are firstly Elisabeth Hill Hodish. Elizabeth is my very close colleague supporting the State Attorneys General Group's Marketing and Business Development activities at Cozen O'Connor, and she is one of the hardest working and thoughtful people that I've had the privilege to work with. I could not do what I do without Elizabeth's assistance, support, and support. Brilliant ideas and marvelous execution. So I really want to give a shout out to Elizabeth. And the other person I would like to give a shout out to is Lisa Haas, our Chief Marketing Officer. Lisa has an extraordinary vision for marketing and business development in Cozen O'Connor, and she is always there. You can always pick up the phone with any question, no matter how small or how large. Lisa listens and she gives counsel, and she really understands the heart and strategic brain of the firm and is able to stress test any crazy idea that I might come up with. So those are the two people that I'm currently working with that I really appreciate this Thanksgiving. So thinking about a valuable piece of advice, I would like to draw on a movie that I've watched, and I've watched it several times. It's a movie I love. It's the 1996 movie Brassed Off, which is set in the north of England. The movie is about a group of unemployed miners who are seeking to fill their days, looking for purpose and companionship, and they form a brass band and enter a brass band competition. And the quote from that movie that really stayed with me is when the leader of the band says, "The truth is, I thought it mattered.I thought that music mattered, but does it? Not compared to how people matter." And that is really the message that I would like to share this Thanksgiving and I think it ties in very nicely with the folks that I've mentioned already. People are what matter. I just love being part of the teams that I'm part of. As I said, if there's one thing that I can leave you with, it would be people, the relationships, the caring, the support, and the friendship.
Charlie: That's a wrap for this episode. A huge thank you to all of our guests for joining us in the special Thanksgiving edition of the CMO Series podcast. Stay tuned for the third instalment where more industry leaders will discuss the power of networking and collaboration, along with valuable insights on taking ownership in your role. Thank you for listening and be sure to subscribe to the Passle CMO Series podcast on your favorite platforms.