Charlie: Welcome to the third and final installment of our special Thanksgiving edition of the CMO Series podcast. In the spirit of gratitude, we've connected with some incredible professionals from across the legal marketing industry to reflect on the people who have shaped their careers.In this episode, our distinguished guests share valuable insights and experiences to inspire the next generation of legal marketers.They explore the power of networking and collaboration and the significance of taking charge of your career and being accountable for your own success.Now, as many have said, legal marketing is a relationship game. And this first group of leaders emphasize the important role of nurturing networks and why proactive collaboration is vital to help take the industry forward.

Michelle: Michelle Fountain-Lee, the head of business development for the United States and Latin America here at Herbert Smith Freehills in New York City.So looking back on my career and a figure that really impacted my journey and my career progression and growth was a CMO that I worked very closely with at Hogan Lovells. She really challenged everyone to reach far beyond their comfort zone and really extend themselves more than they ever could have thought that they could. And for me, it was really important to watch how that whole thing transformed a group of really super intelligent people who in and of themselves were great, but the way that she wanted you to dig within yourself and problem solve and understand really where your capabilities were and then go beyond that, it was magical. And it really gave me the confidence to be the professional that I am today. So a person that I'm really, or a group that I'm really happy to give a shout-out to this Thanksgiving is I have two new team members who just joined up with me in London to help support our explosive growth in the New York office. And they've jumped right in to the deep end of the pool, really put their feet under the table very, very quickly and are doing it with grace and humor and coming from a really great spirit of learning and really wanting to understand what we do here in New York and what the New York market looks like and how that feeds into the overall strategy firm.So if I could share a bit of advice for peers and those who really want to grow and develop within this industry is really to come from a place of yes.Go into meetings with those partners or colleagues or team members or superiors that want to talk about a project. And instead of coming at it from a problem place, come at it from a solution place, a place of yes, a place of really wanting to collaborate, to see things through in a highly productive way. Too often people may want to just say, oh, I'm too busy to do that. I really don't have time to get involved in that project, even if it would be really aligned with career goals or where you would learn something, since we all need to be continuously learning something, come from a place of yes, raise your hand, do something difficult, jump out of your comfort zone. And if you don't try, you're never going to know that you can really, really do it. And it puts you out front and center and starts to help you develop your reputation and your brand in this business. 

Jennifer: Hi, I'm Jen Stokes, and I'm the Senior Marketing and Business Development Director at Shipman & Goodwin. My career has been shaped by so many great mentors, so it's really hard to single out just one. I've worked in lots of different industries, and that's really helped me lay a foundation for my current role. I've been at Shipman almost 17 years and had the privilege of working with so many great partners and leaders who didn't just support me, but they really championed my growth and gave me the runway to try new things, take chances and saw potential in me and provided those opportunities to grow. So I feel like at this point in my career, I feel passionate about paying that forward and nurturing that same kind of talent and potential I see in my own team. I'm really lucky.I have a really great, incredibly talented marketing and BD team, and we've done a lot together. And I think we really inspire one another to continue to grow and thrive. There are so many people I could acknowledge. I think in particular this year, I'd love to give a shout-out to Jennifer Simpson-Carr from the PR firm Furia Rubel. You know, we all have people in our lives who become part of our inner circle or our village, and she's definitely in mine. We've been working together now for a few years on many projects and opportunities. And to me, she really exemplifies the power of authentic professional relationships. You know, we have a trust and a mutual respect for each other, and it really creates opportunities for growth personally and professionally and project success. So I know I can lean on her for honest guidance and feedback and support and feel just really grateful for her as a part of my village. One valuable lesson I've learned is the importance of building meaningful personal relationships, both within your organization. So with your own team, your lawyers, your key stakeholders throughout your firm, but also with those outside of the firm, your clients, your industry partners. When you create this web of trust, you cultivate really strong bonds with your attorneys and business professionals, and you get the real scoop and the inside information on the cases and deals. And understanding your lawyer's strengths and what they do, it really allows you to tell their stories more authentically to the world. And when you establish that deep level of trust, you become the person they want to call when they need your help. So I think these internal and external relationships really feed into one another. When you really know and understand your attorney's experience, you're going to make more meaningful connections for them. And when you get those, when you have those great external relationships, you can bring valuable opportunities back to your firm. So it's like a virtuous cycle that goes way beyond sort of the traditional marketing metrics. 

Barbara: I'm Barbara Bell Malin, and I'm the Chief Business Development and Marketing Officer at Jackson Walker. I'm tremendously grateful for Mary Emma Karam. She is a partner at Jackson Walker, and I have known her throughout the entirety of my career as a lawyer and then legal marketer. I first met her when I was a second-year law student at SMU. Mary Emma is also a graduate of SMU, and she was interviewing students for some of her associate positions at Jackson Walker. I had known of Mary Emma through her reputation at the school and was very excited to have the opportunity to interview with her. And I did end up getting an offer as a summer associate at Jackson Walker and accepted it and went to work at Jackson Walker as a summer associate that summer and had the opportunity to work with her on one of the cases that is still one of the firm's sort of marquee and largest cases in its history. So I had a great experience working with her, ultimately ended up doing a clerkship and going a different direction in my career, but remained in touch with Mary Emma. And she's been a tremendous mentor to me throughout my career. In roughly 2016, she reached out to me and we had remained connected through various activities in the community. We're involved in many of the same charitable organizations. And she told me that Jackson Walker was looking for a new chief business development and marketing officer. And having worked with me, she thought that I had all the qualifications to work with her. She was at that point the marketing partner at Jackson Walker. After a series of interviews and some decision on my part, I made the decision to stop practicing as a lawyer and make the transition into business development and marketing and haven't looked back since. I'm so grateful to Mary Emma for spotting my potential at all the stages of my career in which we interacted. And I'm so grateful for the generous way in which she's mentored me over the years. There is definitely someone I'm currently collaborating with that I would like to give a shout out to. Shane Grahn, who is a member of our IT team at Jackson Walker, has been a huge supporter of my team. He's helped us develop Power BI dashboards and is receptive to every single request, probably more than 100 and so dashboards have been developed as a result of requests that we've made to Shane. Additionally, this past year, he helped us with a project for which we actually won the Legal Marketing Association Your Honor Award. We took our clients, which had not at that point been classified yet by industry, and Shane, through the magic of Python and artificial intelligence, helped us come up with SIG codes for over 20,000 clients. It was a hugely collaborative project among our team, the IT team, including Shane, and our knowledge and services team, which is led by Greg Lambert. And it's been super impactful in that we're now able to segment our client base by industry's SIC codes down to the four-digit level, which is something we didn't have the ability to do before. And so huge shout out to Shane for his work on that project, which has been a major, major project and a major collaborative effort for the firm. The advice that I would give to legal marketers at any stage in their career is that this is really a team sport. It's not an individual sport. Collaboration is really the name of the game. And that includes collaboration among members of our teams, among our teams and other departments within our firms, and even across firms. This is not a zero-sum game, although our firms may be competitors. We can learn a lot from each other, and every firm implements ideas in different ways, and so it's so important that we have the opportunity to get together and share ideas to elevate the profession as a whole.

Diana: My name is Diana Courson. I'm the Chief Marketing Officer at Wiley in Washington, D.C. As I look back on my career in legal marketing, I'm especially grateful for the friends I've made along the way because of legal marketing. Whether it's the strong network of fabulous women I met and I'm still really close friends with from my time at Dickstein or the friendships I've forged through being actively involved in the Legal Marketing Association, I really wouldn't be here today without them. At a minimum, I know I wouldn't have had as much fun. These are demanding jobs, and having friends you can lean on is obviously so important. And I know I wouldn't be here in this exact spot without at least one of them. When Alina Gorokhovsky, who I met in my very early days of attending monthly LMA meetings in D.C., was leaving Wiley, it was Alina who referred me for this position. So thank you, Alina. This Thanksgiving, I would like to give a special shout out to Kay Nash, Wiley's chief talent officer. I have no doubt when many people at Wiley think about their experience here, they think of Kay. At least she's one of the people that I'm sure they think about. She is such an integral part of this firm. She's an amazing colleague, coach, mentor, cheerleader, sounding board, all wrapped into one. I feel really lucky that I get to work with her and especially lucky that I get to call her a friend. This place really wouldn't be the same without her. My piece of advice to others in legal marketing is to build your network both within and outside of your firm. You know, being successful in a law firm, you know, no matter your position, including attorneys, is about building strong relationships. And a big piece of that is creating a network outside of your firm, especially within the legal marketing community. That network can be such a useful resource. I know it has been for me, you know, for brainstorming ideas, for benchmarking, and recruiting. I've always been blown away by how willing everyone is to share ideas. There's so much value in building those relationships, and it's never too early to start, you know, building your network in this field.

Kate: I'm Kate Pearch. I'm the Chief Strategy Officer at Morris Manning & Martin. I am really fortunate to have worked with a lot of fantastic people along the way, both in Morris, Manning & Martin, and then partners with us outside of the firm. But I think this month, I am most grateful for our managing partner, Simon Malko, who is a true mentor, a friend, and a huge advocate for me. He has given me so many opportunities to become a true contributor for the firm, both with marketing and business development and really overall firm strategy. And I know there are not many jobs or many firms like mine, and I'm grateful to work with such a good friend every day. Really, it would be my whole team. I took on this role about six months ago. I'm still figuring it out. And I think the team is still figuring it out. But I have seen our team step up and take on new responsibilities, bring new ideas to the table in a way that has... In a very positive way, it surprised me, right? I knew they were capable of great things, but they've accomplished even more than I thought possible. And in particular, Amelia Calloway, who is our director of marketing and beauty, has really just owned the team as a whole. She provides great guidance to the team. And we had two women move into more senior positions, Michelle Eddy and Kelsey Ennis. They're doing such great jobs as managers. So I am loving collaborating with the three of them and see the team as a whole collaborating with each other and helping us kind of get to that next level. I would say hire people who are good at things that you struggle with. You know, hire people that are going to make you stronger and make you better. And I really have built that with Amelia and the others on our team. They have skills that I don't. And I hope that I add value to their days as well.But, you know, the way that they take on their roles and your projects every day makes me a better leader and makes our firm more successful.

Malcolm: Hi, my name's Malcolm Pobjoy. I'm the Executive Director of US Market Management at law firm Osborne Clarke. Well, I would have to say my thoughts go back to the very first sales manager that I had who gave me a shot at selling Wang computers many years ago. His name was Malcolm Calderwood, who battled through adversity of a major motorcycle accident and really taught us resilience, taught us all of the basics of selling about building relationships. About getting to really get into consultative selling by answering questions, asking questions of the people we spoke to. A great inspirational leader and a very supportive manager. Yeah, I think I'd have to mention my two colleagues, Yeliz Atak and Kelly Harlick, who work here with me in New York. They founded a group, Global Council, which is a community of in-house female lawyers and really promoting that network to try and break down some of the inequality in the legal world of women achieving the maximum they can do and contributing most. So it's a combination of networking and enabling people to communicate together, connect together, ask each other questions, and also provide some insights on career development opportunities. So that network started just over a year ago, and now it's got over 200 people subscribing and sharing their experiences and helping each other along. So really thankful that they've got that up and running and moving forward.I think it's one of the lessons that Malcolm Calderwood taught me about being constantly asking questions and being inquisitive. I always feel that I don't know everything. So the way to learn is to ask questions, the way to actually get people comfortable that you're talking to is getting them to talk about what they know, their company, their life, their experiences, their challenges. And the only way of doing that is by asking questions. So being inquisitive and asking questions really helps build relationships and it helps me in my day of business development.

Charlie: Kate Boucher, Chief Business Development Officer at Foley Hoag, joins the episode to reflect on her mentor who guided her career early on and celebrates the person she is currently collaborating with. 

Kate: It's a great question and very easy to answer. Rick Shea. Rick was my first boss at a law firm where I was a slowly but surely, I learned from him the business side of law and went to him one day with a marketing plan and asked if I could be the first marketing and business development manager at the firm, a position that I created and one that he took a leap of faith and agreed to and worked closely with me on. And that has clearly impacted my career from the very beginning. He saw potential in me. He was a terrific mentor and really provided this opportunity for me to grow in my career. Rick is sadly no longer with us, but I can say that he has certainly set the foundation for me as I grow in my career. I cannot wait to give a shout out to my colleague, Nicole Archibald, who's our chief legal recruiter officer here at the firm. Nicole and I actually just came back from New York, where we did a joint presentation together on lateral partner performance and integration. She asked me to join her on a panel at a NALP conference, and it has just been a pleasure working with her. We collaborate every day. We've extended our professional relationship. We are now friends, and I value her friendship, her professionalism, and the collaboration that we have.We have really, really upped our game in the lateral recruiting space and the onboarding and integration into the firm that I'm really proud of and could not have done without her. So that's another easy one. What would be the most valuable lesson that I've had is certainly building and maintaining relationships, both on the professional level and the personal level. You know, strategic initiatives, marketing tactics, all of that are critical and essential to, you know, what we're trying to accomplish here at the firm.But without taking the time to understand what our colleagues' needs are, our clients' needs, what the challenges are, we certainly would not be able to be successful.I would say that, you know, in addition to the relationship building, equally as important is open communication. And anyone on my team or folks that know me would be nodding their heads right now. Communication is certainly the most important when it comes to being successful in your role. And so I think, you know, relationship building and communication go hand in hand and can certainly be a differentiator that sets someone apart on a team or a law firm apart in this legal industry.

Charlie: Our final guests conveyed their gratitude to the key influences in their careers and discussed the need for taking ownership and the secrets to successfully working within law firms.

Lisa: I'm Lisa Cooms. I'm the Director of Marketing and Business Development at Friedman Kaplan. Back before I was in legal marketing, I was a practicing attorney. And there was a senior associate I worked with for several years. And no matter how intense the hours or stress, she just had this amazingly calm and thoughtful demeanor. And I noticed how that affected me and others on our team and even the clients and she really got the best out of everyone and it felt very genuine and so that's one thing I've kind of taken forward with me through various aspects of my career.In more current times, Anne Beaumont and Mala Harker, who are two of the members of my firm's management committee and the ones I report to, and I think the interesting thing about being a lead marketer is you're often reporting to attorneys whose careers have been practicing law, not in doing the things that you do day in and day out. And I think that it requires just an enormous amount of trust. And I'm so appreciative that Anne and Mala put that trust in me and give us an environment where we openly collaborate with each other and they truly value what I bring to the table and just their full support of my continued professional development. So I think it's really key to have management of your firm that is really supportive of the function and of you as a person and I'm really lucky to have that.I've had a lot of incredible colleagues throughout the years, one in particular who's been working with me day in and day out for the past three and a half years is Sarah Calaman. And to have watched her substantive growth and maturity and poise, her eagerness to learn has been really special. And now we have another team member who she's taking the lead on training and I'm watching that cycle carry on. And so a very special shout-out to Sarah. I think that so much of our job is centered around communication, and whether that's communicating with the outside world or internally. We have a very unique perspective of our firms and see them from a different angle than almost everybody else there.I think if we can constantly think about making sure we're providing context and openly communicating as much as we can about why we're doing what we're doing and what we need from people and why, that really helps. And then the other thing I would say is just be curious and always think about how you can make your firm better.I think that owner versus employee mentality, where no matter what level you are and how many years of experience you have, people really notice when others around them take initiative and ownership. That's something anyone can do. I've certainly always noticed who around me is doing that. Even if they're doing a job I know nothing about, you can tell when someone's really committed.

Brian: I'm Brian Colucci. I am the Chief BD and Marketing Officer for Kilpatrick Townsend in Stockton. I would probably have to say Jim Gilliland. Jim was the chairman of Townsend and Townsend and Crew, which is the firm that hired me for my first director-level role back in 2005. It was a new role for Townsend as well. They had never had anybody at that level, so it was a little bit of uncharted territory.I always remember that interview because, in most interviews, you're trying to build up your experience and explain how it's going to apply to the role. This was an uphill climb for me since I'd not been in that director-level role before. But in the brief time that we met and worked together, we developed a level of trust that I think led him to take a chance on me. I was able to convince him that a fresh perspective, a new way of looking at things, and some energy would be what that firm needed at the time. We went on to work together for many years, and I learned so much from him about leadership. He was very calm under pressure and one of those few people that you could bring into almost any situation, and he could bring reason and clarity to it, which is a really unique quality. As a leader, that can really help you get through some difficult situations and create clarity out of chaos. So yeah, we're in the process of doing a lot of year-end things on the administrative side. One of those is developing our budget for next year. I've been seriously collaborating with members of our finance team. Like many firms, many large firms, we've got about 20 teams and around 23 offices that all have their own budgets, competing interests, overlapping interests, and things like that. It’s a heavy lift to predict our annual spending, particularly in an era of economic uncertainty, high inflation, and all the rest. It takes a lot of patience and the ability to look behind the numbers, assess ROI, and then communicate all that back to partners and other stakeholders. It's a huge lift at an otherwise really busy time of the year. I'd definitely give a shout-out to the finance team. They are very collaborative and great to work with. I'd also give a shout-out to everyone who's trying to close out this year strong and prepare for next year.I had a contracts professor in law school who opened his first lecture by telling us that we weren't only in law school, we were in fact school. That has always stuck with me as I've navigated my way through the business world and helped to run a law firm. I've found that if you come armed with the facts into any discussion, whether you're trying to get a lawyer to do something, not do something, or adopt a strategy you're proposing, you have a really good chance of succeeding. You need to anticipate objections and offer alternatives. If you can do those things, you might not always get your way, but you'll have productive conversations. Maybe if you don't win one argument, you'll win the next because you've created a level of trust and respect.

Charlie: To close out this special Thanksgiving episode, Gina Carriuolo, Chief Business Development and Marketing Officer at Hinckley Allen, shares her gratitude and the key lessons she's learned throughout her career, as well as some wise words for those progressing in the industry.

Gina: When I was 23, working at my first big law firm job in Washington, D.C., I was fortunate to have the opportunity to work with the former managing partner who was in the D.C. area working for the firm to expand laterally and through merger. I learned so much from him. One thing I learned from him was to always be present, always listen, and always proofread. The proofreading was one thing that caught me in one instance where I didn't proofread as carefully as I should have. I learned my lesson. His values stick with me. I always try to be present in my job. I always try to listen to what's really being asked and always try to figure out what's next. That’s because of him. Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. When I think about this time of year, I'm always thinking about what has happened. I don't wait till the new year to say, "What did my year look like?" Thanksgiving is my chance to do that. This year, I’m new to my firm, and I have to say that my gratitude goes to a lot of people at my new firm. I have been so welcomed here, and there’s so much exciting planning and activities being done at Hinckley Allen. I feel like joining this firm was a great career move for me, and I’m excited to see what’s to come.I think what's missing in many marketing efforts is this constant questioning: Is it marketing? Is it BD? Is it communication? Is it coaching? It's really about supporting and moving forward, always asking what's next. Whether it’s an event, a pitch, an RFP follow-up, or a partner needing support for a client activity, an article, or a press release, it's always about what's next. Even something as simple as writing an email—when you're writing it, think about answering the question of what’s next so you can provide complete information and make it seamless.

Charlie: That’s all for this special Thanksgiving edition of the CMO Series Podcast. Thank you to our wonderful guests for joining us and to you all for listening. We wish you a very happy Thanksgiving. Be sure to subscribe to the Passle CMO Series Podcast on your favorite platform so you never miss an episode. We'll see you next time.