Alistair: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series Podcast, where we talk all things marketing, business development in the world of professional services. In smaller to mid-sized firms, the marketing function can sometimes fall on the shoulders of just one person. But today, we're gonna explore the art of marketing on your own, and the secrets to succeeding as a solo marketer. Although, I must say, ironically, we're speaking with not one, but two brilliant guests who will share their insights on how they approach this effectively. I'm delighted to welcome Paige Pierce, business Development and Marketing Manager at Ray Quinney & Nebeker, one of the largest law firms in Utah, and Tiffani Mowry, Marketing and Attorney recruiting coordinator at Crowley Fleck, the oldest and largest firm in Montana. 

Charlie: The CMO Series Podcast is brought to you by Passle, the creators of Cross Pitch AI, which makes cross-selling happen. Switch it on and try it today by visiting passle.net. Now back to the podcast.

Alistair: Paige and Tiffani, welcome. 

Paige: Thank you. 

Tiffani: Thank you, Ali. 

Alistair: I am thrilled to have you both here. I know we're recording on a Monday afternoon, so I know it's very busy for you, so super appreciative of your time. But in terms of today, it's gonna be a great conversation. So, to open us up, could you both begin by telling our listeners a little about your current roles and firms? And Tiffani, I'm gonna hand that straight to you. 

Tiffani: All right. I'm Tiffani Mowry. I've been at Crowley for almost 17 years. We have 11 offices across three states, Montana, Wyoming, and North Dakota. I currently have 156 attorneys that I work for, 10 internal practice groups, which translates to 26 practice areas, and I'm a team of one. I also do the attorney and summer associate recruiting. 

Alistair: So not a lot of responsibility there, then? 

Tiffani: Not much. 

Alistair: And over to you Paige.

Paige: As Ali said, I am the marketer at one of the largest Utah firms. We have over a hundred attorneys and we have one main office, and then a remote office down in Provo, which is close. But another option for us, we've got a few attorneys that work out of there that support Southern Utah. I have an agency that I actually work with, so that differentiates me from a different from other firms. And so I sort of manage the relationship between our firm and what our needs are to a marketing agency, who helps me with some of our day-to-day things like the website and things like that. And then internally, I wear lots of hats and help the attorneys, support the attorneys with their practice groups and different needs that they have, client socials and webinars and RFPs and those kind of things. So it's different every day, which is fun. 

Alistair: I think it's amazing. As I joked about Tiffani, both of you have so much responsibility on your shoulders. It's something that since meeting you both I think a couple years ago in Nashville, that was one of the things I've admired about you and I know from the conversations that we were having previously, I think the average of attorney to Marketing and BD individuals, something like 25. And you both have over a hundred. So, it just shows how much is on your shoulders, but thank you very much for sharing with that with us. So, to move us on, Paige, I would like to open this question to you, but could you share the strategies and approaches you take to managing campaigns and initiatives as a solo marketer? 

Paige: Yeah, so one of the strategies or approaches that I take first is, when you're all by yourself as a solo marketer, yes, you have attorneys that you work with and things, but creating a network of other marketers outside of your firm is really important. So I have a few professional networks that I'm a part of, and one of my first steps is reaching out to them and finding out if they've had a similar situation, or tried to launch a similar campaign or initiative, and then get feedback from them before I even start. Just to have that support behind me. I know that when I go to my firm with the backing of Tiffani and I are both part of Lex Mundy, so they've been vetted by my firm, we're part of the network. And so when I bring the information that I've gathered from them to my firm, I already have that sort of pillar behind me that is trusted. So I go to them first and find out sort of what worked and what hasn't. And then my second step I would say is for all things that I do within the firm is finding, you know, your attorneys that you work with, I know mine, I know who is going to support me or be my champion in different areas. And so finding out who that person's gonna be and going and speaking to them just like I have with my other network professionals. Then I find that person internally and sort of bounce ideas off before I bring it or roll it out to the entire firm, because that way you have sort of a backing, it's not just you're not by yourself, but you have done your research, you found your people, and then execution is much easier and buy-in. It's important to find that person the champion, as I say, that has buy-in with other attorneys or with the firm as a whole, because that sort of gives you an even bigger base to roll out your ideas and initiatives for.

Alistair: I think, I can only imagine like when you are working on your own, just finding those networks and the people that you can lean into, and understand some of the approaches that they've previously taken, that you can then take to your sort of the attorneys within the firm must make a huge difference. I know that's something that you really focus on as well, Tiffani, when it comes to, you know, finding those people around you. And again, being that solo marketer at your firm, how important is it for you to have full buy-in and support the firm's leadership? And I guess to both you, towards the end of that, like how would you ensure you get that support as well?

Tiffani: Totally. Full support and buy-in I think is actually critical when you are a solo marketer. Without that buy-in and that support system, you're probably gonna struggle with, you know, being micromanaged, not receiving the budget you need to get projects done. And then overall lack of engagement from your attorneys at the firm. Luckily I'm in a position where we have, I have talked down support for my role and what I do at the firm. But in the beginning I had to prove my worth. I had to let them know that this position was needed and that I was going to align the marketing strategies and efforts right alongside with that strategic plan that they have in place. And really communication is what got me where I am. Being completely open and honest about timelines, about what I wanted key outcomes to look like. And if I was struggling. So all of that communication and transparency really is that foundation for those strong relationships, which then turn into buy-in and support. And as Paige said, your champions are definitely going to be in your corner. You know who they are and you definitely lean on them. That could be anyone from a practice group leader, that could be just a really great partner. And I have some associates that are my champions already just from the work that we've done together. So it's super important to have that buy-in, but you can definitely lean on the networks and your friends in the marketing world to help you have that correct preparedness in conversations that also help for that buy-in to happen. 

Alistair: That’s really interesting. You mentioned there about building the trust with those attorneys, and actually I wanted to open it up to both of you on that in terms of whether there were any stories that come to mind from, I guess maybe your early days with the firm that were like, okay, that was a moment that I was really able to sort of, to use your phrase Tiffani, like, show your worth. But if I think about it again, getting to know both of you and given the positions that you hold, you're both very, you know, open, communicative, charismatic individuals, which I can only imagine really does help with being in front of the attorneys and building those relationships. Yeah, when you think back, was there anything that sticks out for either of you about, okay, that was a really nice moment when I was able to, you know, as I say quote to quote, you prove my worth. 

Paige: Yeah. I think that 2020 was a weird year in the world in general. I didn't start my position until 2021, but when I came in, I think that technology was still not fully being accepted in the way of Zoom like, we are on right now, chatting and talking. And so I think being able to pull off some of our first webinars and our first, we've had an annual tax seminar for the last 30 plus years, and it was always in person. So the scary thought of being able to do this virtually for all of these people. We had one of the biggest turnouts ever because it was virtual, but it was really hard for those attorneys to trust the process. It wasn't until, honestly, I will be honest, it wasn't until it was done and over that they fully, and now every year we're back in person and they still fully trust everything I do with this, their baby. They've been putting this on for over 30 years and it's their baby, and now that practice group lead is one of my champions within the firm. If I need something, he's someone that I go to because I showed that I can bring a different skillset that they didn't necessarily have or hadn't been hadn't trusted before. And so it sort of gave me this level of clout, which was very nice. 

Alistair: Oh, absolutely. Love that. And what about yourself, Tiffani? Was there anything that kind of came to mind for you? 

Tiffani: I think back when I was young at the firm we were growing pretty fast expanding into different states and getting into Wyoming. And I think one thing was brand recognition was a big deal for us and getting that brand standard across 11 offices, and being able to do that successfully with the right contacts and contact partners in those offices was just. You know, the buy-in that I needed from 11 offices that helps a lot to have that backing behind you. Not just in a practice group, but I had, you know, these champions in all the offices that could see the brand recognition spreading into their communities and states. And just made a pretty big effort altogether.

Alistair: That's another wonderful story. I think what I take away from both of those is just, it's the ability to show that as you say, the worth around something that really matters to the attorneys. And when you can build that trust with them around something that they take so much care and pride in, it really speaks for itself as you move forward. So I absolutely love that. I'm bringing us sort of around to actually something you brought up earlier, Paige, just some of those networks elements, you've both kind of discussed the importance of having those supportive net networks, you know, especially through the likes of Lex Mundi which is now, which how you both met. Could you each talk a bit about the networks you do lean on and share some examples of how they have supported you. 

Paige: I think honestly, meeting Tiffani has been a huge help in being a solo, and that was through Lex Mundi. I think that the fact that it's a network that my firm supports and vetted, we've been a part of Lex Mundi, even before I came, and so they are willing to send me to our yearly round tables and things like that. So I get to actually have not just our virtual connection, but our in-person connection. That group is also insanely quick to email each other back when we have a question or something comes up. It's brilliant. I love it. So I'm also, so that one I find really important in my day-to-day life. But then also I'm part of the LMA and we have, so even if you don't get to go to the conferences or do the meetups, if they're not local, we've got a virtual group that has been…Amazing in helping me with my career as well. I'm on a committee now for a virtual group, for the virtual group, and just having that experience of helping put together programs that go out to the LMA or not, you don't have to be a part of the LMA to join them as well, but, putting those together and finding out what people are struggling with and what they do, what they're looking for in some terms of content, has sort of helped elevate my position as well and given me another level within my firm of, sort of, buy-in to that. I do know what I'm talking about and that I am someone that other people look to within the legal marketing community. And then also, again, there are people that I can just lean on and talk to when I need something or have a question. And so those two groups have really been really supportive, but then also help to just elevate the level of where I am in my position.

Alistair: I must say Paige, having been in the room for some of those round tables at Lex Mundi and seeing how well regarded you are by the folk around you. It's certainly the case in terms of people looking to you for your advice and what you have to say. So, yeah, you're right, right, and picking up on that, 'cause I've certainly seen it myself. And what about yourself, Tiffani? I know there's like one or two you've sort of fall into a couple of those same groups and some others that have been really beneficial to you.

Tiffani: Yeah, and I'll echo Paige's, you know, comments about Lex Mundi, a fantastic group of marketers, brain power and just great personalities. And then we are big in the trial network as well. State law resources and that Employment Law Alliance. I go in person to both the Lex Mundi and the trial network round tables for the marketing professionals. And I say, ask for the money. Do it. If you're in a small market still asked to go to those type of events, the one-on-one personal time to meet other marketers is invaluable. The relationships I've built over the past. Goodness. We've been in Lex Mundi for years and years in the trial network, just for a couple. But the relationships I've already been able to build within those groups is something I look forward to every year in person. And I know, as Paige mentioned, we do have email groups where we jump on and we ask each other questions. Are you thinking about a new policy, a new procedure? I asked the group, I see what they, if they have done it, if it worked out well, if it was a negative experience then you can go back to your management and say like, Hey, yeah, let's go for it. X law firm already did this. Here's how they did it. They're similar to we are, I'm building a new, we're getting a new website. So I asked my groups for suggestions on designers things to avoid in the redesign process. So lots of help, just vetting ideas. And as a solo marketer, you don't have that team to bounce ideas off. So using these networks is definitely something I would say do. Because if you are thinking about it, most likely another firm has either done it, or thinking about it themselves. 

Alistair: I think, yeah, what's, what really comes through from that is that it, it's the power of that network means so much to you. And in some ways, even though you are solo marketers, they form a little bit of an extension to your team really. And they're those people that you can turn to and learn off of, and you know, whether it's in the good moments or the slightly harder moments, there's somebody there that you can, you can either learn off of or at least certainly talk to. And actually on that topic, Tiffani, I know when it sort of comes to managing your marketing efforts as a solo coordinator we sort of spoke a little bit around sometimes there's difficulties and that's of course the likes of maybe managing your own personal time or managing multiple priorities. Would love to hear a little bit more around some of that and how you've been able to work around those. 

Tiffani: Time management. It's definitely something that I come across every day. It's an active, you know, part of my life. I've become okay with unread emails in my inbox especially if I'm doing an urgent project or I'm just trying to get organized.I use my calendar for everything. If it's not on my calendar, I always say it's probably not gonna get done. So I do batch, my tasks with items that are like, like the same situation. So budgeting, I put that all into one time on my calendar. I try to only schedule meetings and phone calls at a certain time of day. Then I also have my recruiting that I slide in here during the day as well. So it's definitely hard when you are wearing as many hats as we do. As Paige mentioned earlier. It's just one of those things to learn to be okay with having some stuff undone in that moment. Just to trust yourself and to know that you're going to get it done and that you are knowledgeable enough to see what's urgent. What is not so urgent, even if that attorney is feeling like it's an urgent task, you as the marketing professional trust yourself to know this is not that urgent need and that you will get to it and put it in the queue at the right timeline. 

Alistair: I bet that kind of comes with time being able to sort of trust your gut and you say, know your instinct around what actually matters and what doesn't. But you know, a few people probably listening back to this, it'll be stressing them out thinking about those unread emails just being left there, which is exactly rather impressive to be able to do 'cause that's not easy. And the answer could easily be no here. But have you found any pieces of technology that are useful for helping some of your, maybe whether it's time management, project management, obviously. You may not have, but just with the way that the world;s shifting and AI, I was wondering whether you'd found either of you had found anything that you found particularly helpful. 

Tiffani: I just lean on that count, that outlook. Calendar. Calendar with tons of reminders and tons of popups to keep me on task.

Paige: Yeah, I do use my calendar, but also we have the Microsoft to-do LinkedIn and that one also, if it's something where I have, you know, a reminder that I need to set or things like that, sometimes I will not put them in my calendar because I've got so many other things on my calendar that I'd rather put them in my to-dos. So that I can see and have notifications when something is, oh, you need to remind so and so to do this. This is and so, or reminding myself of things too. I use both of those to compliment one another. 

Alistair: That's awesome. That's awesome. Your time management, both of you is incredibly impressive, I must say, from what you're sharing. And Paige, again, touching upon sort of being that one person team, how would you manage project feedback? So I know that you recently did your website, I think you're saying, so you know, could you share any examples of receiving feedback and the strategies you've drawn on to handle that? 

Paige: Yeah, I think if you're able to have a thick skin that is amazing. I'm not as great at that. So what I have to remind myself when I feel like it's more so personal is that it's not. I think that everyone is a part of this firm is a part of the team. So if something goes out and it's not their favorite, they then that's okay. They can come let me know. But what I have to remember is, even though I'm a solo in my department, I am not a solo in the firm of decision making. I think anyone who works for a law firm knows that nothing goes out with me without many eyes on it and many opinions going into it. And so that collective sort of project that has been based forward to the clients is not all me. And so I need to be able to listen to that feedback, take it, thank them for the feedback, and then figure out whether or not that feedback was something that I take and do something with in one way or the other or how it's sort of handled.And so, yeah, the biggest, I think the biggest thing is just remembering that it's not, it's feedback. But it's not personal. And so, like we did, we put out our website and I had a lot of really great feedback, but then I had some feedback that they liked some things that, or they wanted some things to be different. And so. If it's a changeable thing that I can do, absolutely. If it's not, you know, I need to let them know why we did that and give them the reasoning for it, and hopefully that will settle their sort of feelings about it and then we can move forward. And so basically if you don't have a thick skin, just remember it's not just all about, you know, it's not feedback about you.

Alistair: Of course. I think that's really well said. And I know that from our previous conversations, both of you were sharing that, you know, leaning into those networks again, and it's been a common theme throughout this conversation, has been something that's worthwhile knowing that you can turn to each other, for instance, and have that conversation and learn how each of you dealt with it. So I think that's really important. Amazingly really brings us to the final question, which seems like a bit of a shame 'cause I've been enjoying this conversation. But could you both please share your one golden piece of advice for other solo marketers or those heading up very lean teams? Tiffani, I'm gonna start with you.

Tiffani: Mine is more just the simple things. So mine is to remember to smile, to take a deep breath, to trust yourself and know that you've got this. I think that in the law firm world, confidence is key. Walk in with your chin up and look 'em in the eye 'cause you've got this. 

Alistair: I love that. 

Paige: I love that. That's great. Nice job. 

Alistair: Awesome. It's awesome that Paige, and yourself?

Paige: Okay, so I wanna build off of the quote where you can pick your friends but not your family. So you are in this solo marketing role, which means you don't get to choose the team that you're working with, but you can choose that community that you surround yourself with in terms of those networks that you are a part of, and the connections that you make through those networks, and really build on that because being solo can. Be quite lonely. It's solitary, but it doesn't have to be. You can find those people within your firm and in your community that can really support you and make you feel like you are not by yourself. And I love what Tiffani said. Let's just smile, like take every day as it is, and if you need help, ask for it.

Tiffani: I completely second that. You know, if you need help, ask for it. Because there's plenty of folks in our world that are, you know, wanting to help and able to help, and we're a really great community to be a part of. 

Alistair: And I think to round off, those are two incredible answers and you really are such impressive and just golden individuals in what you are doing. And I really hope that to what you said there, Tiffany, that people who do listen to this and feel like maybe, you know, they've got a lean team or their individual marketers themself and actually they could either learn off of you or reach out to you for a little bit of help and knowledge is something that I know that you would both be open to. So fingers crossed that. Does resonate with everybody, I'm sure. I'm sure it will. But thank you ever so much for today's conversation. This is the first time we've ever had solo markers onto the podcast, and as I said at the start of a slight irony that we had both of you on as opposed to just one. But knowing how brilliant you both are and that the good friendship you have, it's been a fantastic conversation. So thank you ever so much. 

Paige and Tiffani: Thanks so much, Ali. It was great. Thank you, Ali. 

Alistair: It's been brilliant. Thank you.