Charles: Hello and welcome to the CMO Series Podcast where we talk about all things legal  marketing and business development. Today we're going to dive into the topic of how law firms pitch and win work.  Now, most law firms do a lot of pitching, but it's often hard to do well, but if you can do it well, there's a big opportunity for growth and that's exactly what we're going to cover today. And I think we've got a fantastic guest to help us with this topic.  Today I'm joined by Patrick Johnson, Chief Business Development and Marketing Officer at U.S. law firm, Honigman.  Patrick is just one month into his role, but by no means a novice, with experience spanning across multiple large law firms and also some time out of the industry at McKinsey.  Patrick brings a sharp perspective on why pitching and winning work shouldn't be treated as a process problem, but rather a strategic one.  We are going to cover where law firms can improve, what best practice really looks like,  and how Honigman is approaching pitching with that open mindset from day one, or Patrick's day one. 

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Charles: Welcome to the podcast, Patrick. How are you doing today?

Patrick:  Charles, thanks. Yeah, greetings from the cold tundra of Chicago and for probably most of us, it's a hard hangover from our loss last night in the playoffs for us American footballers. But otherwise, I'm doing pretty good. Thanks. 

Charles: Okay, so sport and weather aside, you're all well.  

Patrick: Yeah, exactly.

Charles: Patrick, so I mentioned there, you are just a month into your new role as CBDMO at Honigman, but can you take us back a bit and what's been your journey to this point, and when did pitching start to become a real focus of your approach to marketing and BD?

Patrick: Yeah, no sure I appreciate the question.  Thinking about that, it was really interesting to just have perspective but, you know, I started my career at Baker McKenzie. I was the firm's first Global Proposal Manager. It was my entry into law firm marketing, I didn't know what it was per se and it was a really interesting time that the emergence of those panel RFPs were coming.  Baker was trying to get its handle around it. And so that's what I did full-time, not knowing any difference of what law firm marketing was. And then from there, I went to McDermott, Will & Emery, spent some time at Foley & Lardner. And then as you mentioned, I took a sabbatical as I called it, went to McKinsey, came back to Cooley for a short stint, before joining Honigman. 

And to your question,  looking back, I would say pitching really, kind of, became the through line at McDermott. You know, I was the corporate BD Manager and I didn't realize I was pitching and we were building strategy, we were trying to find new ways to develop business, and pitching was core to it. And in particular, the example I like to use was,  they’re a private equity practice, which is among the best today, but at that time there was this acknowledgment of, ‘hey, we want to get more market share. We think we have the right tools. How do we go about it?’.  And as you mentioned in the opening, it's more than process. Success really was built on the culture.  We had a group of partners that were willing to listen to some of the ideas I had, many of them radical,  a lot of them different, but results were immediate. Metrics were tracked. Our first year we had 20% growth, all attributed to this concept of this plan that had pitching at its core.

Charles:  Well, I guess when you get results like that, you can see why it's effective. So, when Honigman brought you in, what was the problem they were looking to solve, and we talked before this call about  Honigman having this ‘tell us what we don't know’ mindset. How has that shaped the way the firm thinks about growth and pitching?

Patrick: Yeah, no, I'll give them credit. They are, you know, for people who might not be familiar, they're in the front end of that second 100  and they've gone through a strategic plan. I'll give them credit. They recognized who they are,  what they're not, and where they want to go, and they realized we have to change or open up our mindset. And I think what was interesting, or what appealed about me to them, was my big law experience like, what do we not know that big law does? Well, I think they saw some of the firms I was at, and then through the process realized, okay, pitching is a core component. They’ve had this ambitious growth plan, they just came off a really good double digit growth year. But it's like, how do we sustain that in a way that's not just raising rates and better realization, and so part of that, to your question, it's about pitching.  

Charles: Yeah. and I mentioned already,  you had some experience, you called it your sabbatical. I don’t know how much of a chilled sabbatical time at McKinsey is, but, your experience outside of the legal industry. When it comes to pitching, what lessons from that environment translate well to legal, and where do law firms often fall short?

Patrick:  Sure. You know, listen, McKenzie was a blast. I left thinking I'm either gonna disappear into the mist and stay there, or I really thought that maybe I would gain these new skills and come back.  You know, I had a lofty title called Client Activation, but all that means was pitching, and McKenzie treated every pitch as a game changer.  Game changer for the client, and also game changer for themselves.  And I can't harp on it enough, I already mentioned it, it's not about process, it was about culture there. So, I was the subject matter expert on pitching. You get a consultant team of really smart individuals who had to go pitch a concept to a client, and I was the person who led them.  It was about culture, number one. Everybody was bought into the process, and I'll come back to that in a minute. But the way McKinsey and other professional service firms pitches, even the big four ones, which is different from law firms, that I think law firms can learn from, and I'm sure it occurs in pockets is,  everything is about the client. You know, go look at a typical law firm website and it's just an abundance of I, we, the firm, our.  None of that narrative was in anything that came out of McKinsey, it was always about the client. We were either trying to solve a problem or we had identified an opportunity, and everything we did was in that vein. I mean, in fact, we didn't even include experience in our pitches.  We would do use cases or we would provide case studies. And the philosophy there, which I'm trying to bring to Honigman is, let's show them, don't tell them.  

Charles: Yeah. They probably, well, with someone like McKinsey, they probably already know  what you do and your sort of accolades. So they need to see it in practice and I guess that's where those use cases bring those stories to life. 

Patrick:  Yeah, without a doubt. And I think that's important that law firms, I sometimes, I don't think they realize, listen, if you've been given the opportunity to pitch,  you've already been vetted. Like, there is an assumption that you can do the work. But, I think often partners fall back on, well, let's prove ourselves first. You know, let's have a tremendous amount of experience, or let's talk about how many years of experience we have, how many lawyers we have. And the point is, I think, and I've had the opportunity to talk to some GCs in the past, they’ve said, ‘listen, if we're inviting you, we already think you can do the work.  Now come tell us and show us why we should select you’. And yeah, some firms probably do that better than others, or it happens in pockets at every firm, but as a cultural norm, that's where law firms can improve. And I think the last thing to add to that, that McKinsey does really well, is storytelling.  Everything we just talked about is through the lens of the client, but it's to tell a story. You know, here's your problem, here are the things that we've identified to solve, or here's your opportunity and here's how we think we can help. 

Charles: Yeah, that, sort of, links a little bit into my next question, which was in your perspective, what do you think best practice pitching looks like in law firms? And what are some of the leading law firms doing well? Is it the similar sort of stuff to the McKinsey approach? 

Patrick: I'm sure it's happening in pockets. You know, from my experience and anecdotally, it really goes back to culture. Here at Honigman, I think what I have is a winning solution, but if I can't change the culture of how partners have pitched in the past, even if they don't like the way they pitched and they've griped about it,  if I can't convince them of a new culture or a new way of working, whatever tools and technologies and process implements will fall flat. So, I can't understate the value of culture. And here, we're off to a good start, because I think what I did is I went on a listening tour, and I asked every partner, what's the one thing that you wish you got out of the group for pitching? What's your pain point? What's your wishlist? And we have a plan and as long as I deliver on that, we'll get those quick wins and then that will allow me to have built the trust and change the culture. I think that's the best practice that any law firm can, whether it's a new chief or someone who's been there for a while, is  go back on that listening tour and listen with empathy. Like, are you actually changing the culture or are you trying to drive the partners into a way of working that they're not interested in?

Charles: Yeah. Now, you mentioned your listening tour, and that links nicely to what I was gonna ask next around your immediate priority. So, it sounds like in the last few weeks you've got out there amongst the team and, sort of, had those conversations. Are there any practical changes that you are already starting to make? And what are your immediate priorities?

Patrick: Sure. You know, staying focused on pitching and it seems fundamental, but just the process and the technologies. Honigman,  they haven't invested much in the past. They realize that, and they're all in on investing. That was part of the conversation I had, like, here's my vision, are you all willing to jump in? So, just the way we talk about ourselves in the materials, you know, I've mentioned the storytelling, the way we present our experience, you know, I've got some secret sauce perspectives, I think, that I've worked at other places that I'm gonna apply here. There seems to be incredible enthusiasm. But technology, test technology. I haven't mentioned the last firm I was at, which was Cooley, and we implemented this technology called ‘Templafy’ and we turned quals decks that used to be days and hours into minutes. That technology was helpful. Here, one of the complaints was the time it took to create basic materials. Well, add in that layer of technology and, you know, you've delivered those wins that I mentioned. 

Charles: And I imagine with AI and all the tools that are coming out, there's probably still, well, new tools that maybe you're still discovering or those old tools have probably developed somewhat if you speak to all of the vendors at these law firm conferences. Every vendor has got new tools and new features. So, I imagine there's lots of exciting stuff to investigate. 

Patrick: There is, and listen, I believe AI will be helpful. Is it the Panacea? No, I believe it's back to the concept of people and process and technology is the amplifier. So, you can have the best technology and if you don't have the infrastructure of the culture, how many times have you talked to people, or people in my position in other firms where technology hasn't been deployed well or it's not adapted or adopted, it just sits there, you know?  Got to get the process and the culture first. 

Charles: That's right. It's a tail as old as time, isn't it? Oh, we've got this brilliant product and they, what I was, they come to you and say, ah, it must be the product. And then you say, I don’t know how into cycling you are, but if you bought a $10,000 Pinarello bike, and you didn't go as fast as Tadej Pogacar, you probably wouldn't blame the bike. The bike's probably up to it, it might just be how it's being used. And then, I think just going back to what you said earlier about that game changing approach, so treating it as a game changer for the firm, but also how it can be a game changer for the client. I think if you can embed that into the culture, that's probably a really effective way of looking at stuff because you are understanding that actually it'd be great for our firm, but actually realizing that it's probably gonna be great for the client as well if they go this way 'cause you're showing them all this way you can help them.  

Patrick: Yeah. Without a doubt. And to give an example, one of the prior firms I was at, there was a young partner who really wanted to grow his book of business and he was open to, ‘hey listen, can you coach me and help me here?’.  And there was a particular client that he had in mind who had, you know, one of the big firms that did all of their commercial transactions and he believed, had this premise that there was a space for what the work he would do, on the lower end of transactional scales. But he is like, ‘I can't get their time of day, you know, any deal list we show isn't gonna be competitive to the current firm’. So I said, well, here's what we're gonna do and this is part of that secret sauce, what I created is called a mock study.  Case studies are great, but they're hard, right? You need approvals, how much can you talk about. So I said, ‘we're gonna create a case study’ and we designed it. We created all the parameters, covered all the legal aspects, nice little one pager that he sent us an email. 

He got a call an hour later from his contact and said, ‘this is great, I happen to have a transaction. Can you do it?’.  Every time that client would call back, he would send back that mock study and say, ‘Hey, we have another one of these. Can you do it?’. Well, that partner's gone on and he's quite successful, and it makes me happy to have provided that service but what is more important, again, resonating all the things I've said before, you know, a new way of working, a cultural process, and then trying something different by showing that client what we can do for them, as opposed to telling them that we know how to do it.

Charles:  Yeah. Yeah. Show rather than tell. I like that. That seems to be a theme of today's podcast. So, we've talked about the, sort of, direction you want to go, but have you experienced anything that gets in the way of doing this well, and maybe why law firms historically struggle to do this well, consistently and effectively, like the barriers, the challenges?

Patrick:  Oh yeah. It's day-to-day work, right.  Seriously, the challenges existing, I can't harp it enough, right, it’s culture. Partners have been successful in whatever it is they've done, and then to convince them of a new way, that is often where you get your initial headwinds. Let's say you have a new process and you have a new way of working for pitching to take a very small example, but this is applicable across anything that a marketing and BD department's trying to deliver. And that partner is reticent to it, or you have a group of partners that's reticent and next thing you know, they either don't buy in, so now you have exceptions to the rule. This group does it one way, this practice group doesn't do it that way, or this one partner insists on doing it. I mean, that's the quickest way to undermine the credibility, and then all of a sudden I find that the fabric rips and that, you know, you lose your, you lose that critical mass and that momentum. So to me, it goes back to culture and from a leadership perspective, it's about getting that buy-in early, like listening, being empathetic, and then getting those quick wins, those small wins, and then you build the momentum. So to summarize it, I think it's winning over the partners in a new way of working that doesn't feel threatening, but as creative.

Charles: Mm. And I guess that when you start to get some successes and use cases where  it's gone well, you can start to feed that back to folks and say, ‘Hey, this is what Sarah's doing over here and it worked well, do you wanna do some of that as well?’.

Patrick: Well, law firms they're risk-averse. They believe that somebody else should do it first, but once it happens, FOMO kicks in. So, to your point, prove to show someone that you've done it to another partner, and then they're gonna want that exact one, but getting someone to go first is the hardest part. 

Charles: Yeah. Right, we're going to jump into the quickfire round now. So this is our chance, and the listener's chance, to find out a bit more about you, Patrick. So you don't have to overthink the answers, be fairly quick, but you can explain them.  The first one I've got is, what are you currently listening to? This could be music, podcasts, audiobooks. 

Patrick:  Yeah, well, I'm an empty nester. So, to fill the silence in my house, there's plenty of music playing and there's a lot of podcast listening.  I have a large catalog of podcasts, and for me, if it's available on a weekly basis, I'm listening to what's called Plain English, by Derek Thompson,  Freakonomics Radio. And then, you know, my guilty pleasures are ‘The Rewatchables’, which is this amazing movie, a discussion of Rewatchable movies from the time when I grew up. And then, I like the media and entertainment legal world and there's this one called ‘The Town’. So, there's always a podcast playing and it's usually amongst them. 

Charles: Yeah. And then if you're putting on music that week?

Patrick: I have, maybe it's just because I don't think today's music's very good, I find myself listening to scores and soundtracks of movies.

Charles: Oh yeah.  

Patrick: And for right now, the Sinners, if you've seen the movie ‘Sinners’, it's a very unique score that's playing in my house all the time. So yeah, maybe that reveals my age, but that's what I find myself listening to. 

Charles:  Fantastic. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Patrick: That's a good one. I don’t know if I ever received it, maybe I read it, and it was something along the lines of, ‘focus on what you can control,  participate where you can influence and then learn to let everything else go’. And for someone who is type A and likes to solve problems, like that to me, you might as well just, you know, tattoo it somewhere so it's a daily reminder. But to me, that’s resonated mostly throughout my life.

Charles: I like that. What's a book or resource you recommend to anyone in your field to read?  

Patrick: Yeah. It's called ‘How Clients Buy’, the longer title is, ‘A Practical Guide to Business Development for Consulting and Professional Services’.  I stumbled upon this book in 2018, 2019, when it came out. I was at an airport, and I'm like, oh, this looks interesting. Read it on the plane. I think I finished it that weekend and I proceeded to buy it for everybody on my team. It's awesome, it talks a lot about what we've covered today, and what you've covered a lot of your podcasts about having a client mindset and learning from, you know, professional service firms that maybe aren't in your industry. It's still timely today. 

Charles: Brill, I'll have to check that one out. I've written it down here, ‘How Clients Buy’.  What's your favourite way to unwind after a busy day?  

Patrick: Yeah. I have a very active dog, I have a German Shorthaired Pointer. So, I find myself going for a long walk, gotta get back, and it's a great way to kind of clear the queue,  and set myself up. But, in addition to that, guilty pleasure, at Christmas I bought myself the ‘Therabody Smart Goggles’. 

Charles: Okay. 

Patrick: And listen, 15 minutes of those and you're a brand new person. So, I highly recommend them. 

Charles: Fantastic.  Where's your favorite place to visit and why? 

Patrick: Oh, geez. Any golf course, you know, if I'm carrying my bag, I don't care where I am. That's sanctuary. 

Charles: Yeah. Fantastic. Brill. Awesome. Thanks for that. Now we'll round off the Podcast the way we round off all of our episodes, and that's asking you for a takeaway piece of advice for marketing and BD leaders that may be stepping into a senior role. What's the one thing they should focus on if they want to improve how their firm pitches and wins work?

Patrick: Yeah. Partners just wanna be heard.  Go on that listening tour, be empathetic, build that plan from that feedback, and then communicate and deliver on it. 

Charles: Brill. Simple. I think that's a really nice way to end the podcast. Well, thanks for coming on today and sharing your expertise and insights. It sounds like you're straight into it in the new role, hitting the ground running from day one, but it all sounds very exciting, so I wish you smiles and success for 2026 and thanks for coming on the podcast, Patrick. 

Patrick: Oh, listen, I appreciate it and hopefully I can deliver on the promises. Thanks a lot. 

Charles: Brill. Awesome. 

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