Charlie: Welcome to the CMO Series Digital Masterclass. Today we're taking a deep dive into a law firm rebrand and what it takes to build a world-class digital presence. I'm Charlie Knight and I'm thrilled to be joined by two experts who couldn't be better placed to discuss all of this. Julie Chodos, the Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer at Axinn and Duncan Shaw, the Chief Creative Officer at Living Group. Julie, in partnership with Duncan, has just launched Axinn's new brand and website and she's here to share her insights on the journey from defining the scope to managing change. And Duncan will guide us through the process from discovery to delivery. We'll also explore the role of thought leadership in shaping the brand strategy and how Axinn plans to leverage its new brand for business development. So if you're about to embark on an all-firm web project or rebrand, this episode is for you. So let's dive straight into it. Welcome both. Thank you for joining me today. 

Julie: Thanks, Charlie. 

Duncan: Hey, hi, Charlie.

Charlie: Thanks. Hi, hi. Good to see you both today. Julie, we'll dive straight in. You've just launched Axinn's new brand and website, as we mentioned. So very exciting. And congratulations. How's it all gone? 

Julie: Thanks so much. Yes, we're in hour three and we've survived. So I would say pretty well. And I'm getting lots of positive feedback from our lawyers at the moment. 

Charlie: Oh, fantastic. Great, great to hear. Just three hours in, we are certainly kind of hot off the press. So that's very exciting. And so I guess just kind of stepping back for a minute, how did you at the beginning of the project, how did you determine that a full rebrand was necessary at Axin? And how did you kind of identify that was a need to create a strong digital presence?

Julie: Well, when I first joined the firm, the partners had identified their brand as something that they really wanted to improve and get on the radar of more of their clients. We're very well known to many of our blue-chip clients, clients like Google, where we just finished up on that trial. The market doesn't know us as well as our clients do and really, really wanted to raise our profile to correct that imbalance. The website, of course, at the time was older and lacking in functionality, but it had a simple and straightforward style that people really liked, but it also lacked a certain humanity that we wanted to make sure we brought into the site so that we could better tell the story about our services and our culture and who we are and also differentiate ourselves from other firms because we are different. And so that conversation about the website itself led to a realization that if we were going to do it well, we really need to engage in a process so that we could better understand and articulate the characteristics that align us at Axinn. What makes us us? And what do we value? What do our clients value? So that we could speak about those things with greater consistency to the market. And then create a visual identity that would reflect those values. And of course, creating a visual identity that we could use with consistency across different channels would help us punch above our weight to improve our recognition in the market with the website as the foundation.

Charlie: Yeah, fantastic. That makes total sense. And as you mentioned, kind of raising the profile of Axinn and kind of telling the story and the culture and I guess demonstrating your firm's expertise as well. So I guess, Duncan, that's where you came in. So can you kind of walk us through what that discovery phase of the rebrand looked like and how did you kind off successfully identify the technical elements required at the outset?

Duncan: Well, I mean, every law firm, despite the industry all looking the same, they all have unique characteristics and we're hell-bent on finding out what makes that law firm different from the very get-go. So our process is really getting under the hood of that firm and understanding what makes them different, what they want to be famous for, and the unique characteristics that are within. I mean, often these characteristics are within the people that come together. So it depends from law firm to law firm, but we always spend a lot of time talking to lawyers, attorneys across the business. We find associates really great to talk to. They really are the future of the legal industry, and they are incredibly brand savvy, digital savvy. So they get it, and they understand where we need to go with it. If we can talk to clients, and we had the opportunity when we worked with Axinn to talk to some of their clients. From the outside looking in, that is so valuable. It really helps us understand why that firm is different perhaps from its competitors. 

And another part of the discovery is using our living ratings analysis, which is our own proprietary research tool, to do a deep dive on the competitor landscape to understand what those competitors are saying, what are their digital presence like. And we go into things like tone of voice. We look at the content types that each firm's using to really understand if there's a gap that we can identify. The one thing I would say is that any discovery process is really a hearts and minds, certainly from the inside as well. So yeah. We'd like to talk to as many partners as we can. And it's not purely from a, you know, trying to get a broader view, but it's really to start influencing them that something's changing. Something's coming down the path that is going to be different. And their input is valuable. The reason why we do that is because when we start to change things and we present back the research findings and we get into the creative phase of looking at a firm's brand positioning, their visual identity, they've been involved in the process. They understand it and it actually paves the way for change and gets things through so that discovery process end to end starts with those initial meetings, workshops, competitor analysis, and then really through presenting the findings to say this is who we think you are and this is where we should go, so a really important part of any branding and digital process. 

Charlie; Yeah, thank you for kind of explaining that process. And I guess, you know, you've done that discovery, you do the research, as you mentioned, you gather all of those insights from the different stakeholders and kind of identify those unique characteristics that are going to kind of make the brand stand out. How do you then, and this one I think is for both of you, how do you align all of that with the brand strategy with the business goals? And I guess, where does visual identity come into that? I don't know, Julie, do you want to start with that one?

Julie: Sure. I think the visual identity and crystallizing it really helped us improve our messaging and positioning with all of our stakeholders, not just our clients. But as Duncan pointed out, we spoke to so many of our attorneys across the firm. It helped us work on internal communications as well as the kinds of communications we're going to share with clients. And obviously, clients are very important to the business strategy for any law firm. So helping galvanize our lawyers and our professionals around those messages is quite helpful. It comes through in the content we share, in the emails we send, in the materials we produce, the messaging on our website, and basically everything that we do.

Duncan: Yeah, and I think adding to that, to what Julie just said, is that the best brands work when they're aligned with the firm's business strategy. Often we are getting involved in projects where we're almost stepping into management consultancy, saying to very senior people in a law firm, "What is the firm's business strategy?" And sometimes they have them, sometimes they don't. I think, you know, the great thing about Axinn was it was very clear: "This is what we're famous for, this is what we do." There’s a very clear strategy there, so it actually made our job slightly easier than perhaps working with more of a generalist full-service law firm. But that alignment is super important because once you align that, there are lots of beneficiaries in the middle. The people who work for you have a clear vision, your clients understand who you are, you're very clear when it comes to things like careers, recruitment, and the practice areas that you want to specialize in. So getting those aligned is super important. We tend to say that we kind of tie them together so that they support each other going forward. Most firms, when we start to work with them, the brand strategy and the business strategy are miles apart. We tend to find very entrepreneurial, fast-moving law firms. They zoom off, they've got a great business, the clients love them, and the brand is chugging behind saying, "Wait for me." So our process is about narrowing that gap, closing that gap up, and having a brand that really supports the business going forward. So that's kind of our process.

Charlie: Yeah, great stuff. And I think that question, the "What do you want to be famous for?" question, I know is part of your process, Duncan. I imagine that that's really key. And Julie, I guess getting your internal stakeholders on board and using that as a prompt was quite helpful in getting them to understand the process?

Julie: Yes, fortunately, when I joined the firm, they'd identified brand as a major need, and they said, "Well, part of why we're hiring you is to help guide us through that. How do we improve it?" So, in many ways, I was answering a need that they felt that they had, which, of course, makes getting buy-in much, much easier. I've been through a lot of change projects throughout my career, and so I called upon all the things that I've learned over the years. And I think meeting the culture where they are and understanding their appetite is really important. Fortunately for me, there was a strong appetite here, so getting people excited wasn't as difficult as it can sometimes be. The process Duncan described, where we spoke to folks around the firm at all different levels, from group brainstorm calls to one-on-one interviews, helped people feel like they were being consulted, heard, and brought along on the journey. I am very careful to make sure to communicate our progress along the way, and I’m never afraid to ask for feedback. Painful though it may be sometimes, I’ve learned that being very transparent and communicating early and often builds trust. When you actively solicit feedback, it encourages people to share more. And I’ve always found that you end up with a better result when you’ve heard from a wider range of people.

Charlie: Yeah, 100%. I guess, kind of delving into that, you’re talking about the change management, and you’ve obviously got lots of experience in that, and kind of getting that buy-in. Are there any, you kind of talked about the feedback and being very open to feedback, can you give some examples of how you did manage the change during this website project? How did you logistically manage that? Was it kind of committees or steering groups? Can you give us an example or two around that?

Julie: Sure. We used a combination of things. We did have a steering group. For certain aspects of decisioning, we limited the audience to senior professionals or the executive committee, and then we would cascade that through to broader groups for their reactions. In some cases, it was, "We’d really like your opinion on this color," which Duncan has taught me is always quite subjective, and that was a fun exercise. To, "Here are things that we've selected, almost as a more foregone conclusion—what do you think about that?" Because lawyers aren’t design experts, but they are the users. So I think framing things in a way that allows them to make decisions easily on things they are experts on is a helpful tip to keep in mind when you're trying to finalize certain aspects quickly to keep the project moving.

Charlie: Yeah, that makes sense. And Duncan, do you have anything to add to that from your experience in managing these projects?

Duncan: Yeah, to our point, and it’s probably coming out loud and clear, getting that lawyer involvement from the get-go is super important. One of the techniques we've used, and we've used successfully with a number of clients, is that when we come to the end of our research phase, we create what’s known as guiding principles. They may be three or four words or adjectives that become the essence of the firm. Those words may never be seen again in messaging, but they're there to guide everyone through the process. For example, with Axinn and Julie, I hope you don’t mind me saying it was things like invested, incisive, inclusive. Those were all agreed upon, and we actually had very little pushback when we presented that to the business, and they said, "Yes, that is us." We used those guiding principles throughout the entire process, from messaging to visual identity to website design. We kept reminding everyone of the guiding principles, and that helped us manage change better than we might have without them. 

Managing feedback is another point, and as Julie knows, color is highly subjective, and we had many discussions around that. Lawyers, being lawyers, do have opinions. Everybody's allowed an opinion, which I think is really important. I guess it's what you listen to and what you filter out is the key here. And being able to counter that with, you know, you often say, well, why have you picked that color? Why have you picked that image? Why are we using that typeface? Anyways, the guiding principles helped us to shape that to say, because of what we've agreed, but also understanding that every firm does want to be slightly different. And there's a great quote out of *Mad Men* where Don Draper says, "Look, success comes from standing out, not fitting in." And it's something that I talk to clients a lot about. And I think one of the keys there is making sure when you do a brand, it has a volume switch. Okay. And what do I mean by that? There are times with certainly your visual identity where you need to tone it right down. When you're being really serious, maybe for a court submission, you're in litigation, etc. But there are times when you have to turn that switch right up when you're looking for the best candidates, the college leavers, the students to join your business. There, you know, your brand has to turn up, work in a different way. So brands have to be a lot more multifaceted than perhaps they've ever been to keep up with the demands of all the digital channels, all the needs, all the different target audiences that appeals to that firm. The other thing is also just reminding the partners they are not necessarily the primary target audience for the brand. You know, you think about that.  I know, Julie, throughout the process, we kept saying, "Look, you've got to think about prospective clients. You've got to think about lateral hires, partners wanting to join you. You've got to think about associates wanting to join the firm." So getting them to think a bit more holistically and reminding them of not just those guiding principles, but the target audience and also the firm's business strategy from the very outset. So lots of little techniques and tricks you can use there to keep the project on track. There are times, obviously, where you have to move things to the left, to the right, with the lawyers being very insistent upon that. But that's just part of the process that we've become used to dealing with law firms.

Charlie: Yeah, there's some great takeaways there and lots of insights unpacked. So you've got the guiding principles to take you all the way through and help manage that process and making sure everyone feels like they're listened to during that feedback as well, and I love the idea of the volume switch on the brand as well, making sure that you've got different assets within the visual identity that you can pull on for lots of different things. And obviously, reminding the partners and all of the stakeholders who the target audience for the new brand actually is. So yeah, lots to think about. Diving back into the web project and the content side of things, what role does thought leadership play in a law firm rebrand, and at what point should CMOs and teams working on these projects be thinking about it? Julie, I don't know if you want to start with that one.

Julie: Sure, well, incredibly important. And we know from many sources, including Thomson Reuters, that content is something that helps drive clients to consider a law firm if they don't know them previously, to hire them because it's the opportunity for lawyers to share their point of view on important issues and topics and show their technical chops in that regard. So we are using Passle, actually, of course, for the content platform. And we launched that prior to launching the new website because we wanted to help our lawyers articulate various topics and issues in a short form, easy way that we could distribute. And we've now taken that thought leadership piece, built it into the new website, and it allows our content to be housed within the same visual identity as our website and everything else. And I think the distribution mechanism for creating that content is very important to show the substance of who we are. A brand is, as Duncan said, not just a logo, and it's not just a visual identity. It's also who we are and how we behave and what we do. And I think the content piece and thought leadership piece is very important to help others understand what it is that we do and how we do it.

Charlie: That phrase that you use, you know, thought leadership being the substance of who you are, is a really good way of putting it. Duncan, what are your thoughts on that, you know, in terms of kind of thought leadership within a rebrand and a web project? Where does that fit in for you?

Duncan: Well, incredibly important. The two things that I feel very strongly about. One is humanity, okay? People still buy people. And I think thought leadership is actually a great way of getting across the humanity of your firm because it's written by a person, talking to a person. So it's a great way of showing we have humanity in our firm. They have a strong viewpoint. It aligns with our brand strategy as it has a place there. I also feel it's a great opportunity to get across the how you do what you do. And the majority of law firms, and we've seen this through our Living Ratings analysis of the top 100 that we produce each year, is that a lot of law firms miss out on the how. They talk about the what they do. They're very clear about the sectors, the industries, the practice areas, but the how seems to go a little bit missing. So again, I think content and thought leadership shows the how in action when it's done properly. So for me, they're the two key areas. And you should start thinking about content the moment you start engaging upon your RFP to think, "Wow, how is my content going to sit in with my brand, with my website, with my social channels? Where's it going to sit? How's it going to be used?" And most law firms, again, have way too much. I would say the majority of law firm websites are expensive filing cabinets filled with lots and lots of thought leadership that people perhaps don't read. And I would encourage any marketeer thinking about embarking upon a digital strategy and website to start looking at their analytics very closely to see what's resonating, what isn't resonating, and start to put together some content governance that then is the guide for content down the track. And whether that be large pieces of thought leadership through to the regular blogs and the Passle experience. We really need to think that people are reading lots of different things now, listening to a lot of different things, and, you know, their attention spans are going down and down and down. And again, that should influence your content strategy going forward.

Charlie: Yeah, some very good points. I think really interesting what you said about thought leadership being a way to kind of, I guess, get under the hood of, as you mentioned, how lawyers are working and the way they think, which pulls through that humanity piece and portraying that human element that they are people. And like you said, kind of people by people. So it's a great way of doing that. So thank you for that explanation. Julie, as we mentioned, you've just launched the new brand. So looking at the next phase, how do you plan to leverage it in your business development efforts? 

Julie: Oh gosh, in so many different ways. I think in the first instance, it's just beautiful and it will spark conversations for our lawyers out of the gate with clients and prospects and anybody that has seen the shift in our visual identity. I think it's a great opportunity for partners to engage with or anyone really in the firm to engage in a conversation about, look at what we've done and look at the journey that we're on. So I think that's one phase of it that'll probably last for a short bit of time. But we're also looking at how do we do more on social media in the new brand, which I think will be more compelling. And we have plans for a lot of that type of content as well as for email marketing content. Again, those are more top of the funnel things that drive conversations and give lawyers an easy way to share things that they're proud of and show that content. And then I think using the website now that has much more technical functionality to showcase key things, the key content elements that we want to share with the market in a way that we just weren't able to do before. And I think coming back to the content and thought leadership point, making that very visible so that partners can share that with clients and prospects helps us improve our business development efforts with reasons to reach out and reasons to have those conversations.

Charlie: Fabulous. And I've just been looking at the new website and the branding. It is beautiful, as you mentioned. Did you want to just give us the new tagline and kind of talk a little bit about what it's looking like, Julie?

Julie: Sure. Well, as Duncan had mentioned earlier, we settled on our core principles, if you will, that were guiding principles about the firm. But also, I think what was impactful about that is it really resonated internally with everyone that, hey, you really nailed it. You got us. We're incisive, we're inclusive, we're invested, and we're also inquisitive. At Axinn, we are very proud of the fact that we're not trying to be like every other law firm. We're a specialty firm, very focused on our antitrust practices, which is quite well known, but also our intellectual property and litigation practices. And what we do, while very well known to the clients who know us, is something that we're trying to improve the profile of with a broader audience. And I think we are quite entrepreneurial, but I think the brand captured a lot of the nuances of who we are, including, and you'll see more about this, the fact that we're a seriously friendly firm. We are serious in what we do, but we don't take ourselves too seriously, and that's one of the major reasons I joined this firm. I really value the humility that Axinn has and how it goes to market that, you know, true leaders don't need to emphasize that in that way. We're really good at what we do. We know it. And clients are a priority. One of the things that we talked a lot about is that Axinn, whether you're an employee of the firm or a partner of the firm or your client of the firm, we accelerate your career and we accelerate your business. And I think that that is very true and authentic to the firm and something that we're quite proud of.

Charlie: Absolutely. It's looking incredibly strong and so sleek and just stunning. So I've no doubt that it's going to be, you know, instrumental in kind of leveraging and using all of that lovely new brand assets in your kind of marketing efforts going forward in your business development efforts, of course. I guess just kind of to wrap things up, and it's been really interesting to hear about the whole process and kind of being able to see it now live is just fantastic. But it'd be good to hear from both of you kind of one thing that you're really proud of. Particularly with this project, and Duncan should we start with you.

Duncan: That's a killer question. One thing I'm proud of with this, I think it's creating a brand that has a real confidence to it. It feels to a certain extent like a sort of a luxury brand. And, you know, we try to avoid the firm feeling boutique, which it isn't. It's fast growing, it's agile, but it delivers a very high-end service. And that's something that comes across, we feel, you know, certainly through the brand, whether it's the messaging, whether it's the visual identity. Also the photography played a huge part of that, and I think it was great. And one thing we're very proud of is that virtually all the recommendations we've made from the very outset have been followed through, and we had the buy-in from Julie and her amazing team to say actually, yes, this is us, you've got it, we're sticking to it. And, you know, hats off to Julie's team also for keeping it on track because I've seen projects before where, you know, the visual style, the brand has been agreed. And through time, by the time it gets to launch, it sort of gets whittled away a little bit. People maybe lose a little bit of confidence. But I feel here, I think the thing that we're most proud of is that what we set out to achieve, we've achieved. And it's a brand with amazing standout. It hasn't been designed by committee, but it's had inclusion all the way through. And I'm really excited to see where Axinn goes over the coming months and years with this new brand playing its part.

Charlie: Fantastic. And Julie, what are your final thoughts for this episode and what you're particularly proud of?

Julie: Sure. I'm so proud of our lawyers for their enthusiasm and positive energy all throughout this process and their appetite for change. Because I'm sure as you both know, that's not always the case in most law firms. And I'm grateful for everybody's willingness to participate and kind of having this moment of seeing the joy it has sparked in people, which usually that is not the case in a law firm, being serious about what they do. And also for me personally, this is a very proud moment because I went to school thinking I was going to be an artist at one point, and I ended up becoming a lawyer instead. So for me, this harkens back to a lot of the things I learned about strong design and the ability to create something that impacts others in a lasting way. And being able to see that through the eyes of our lawyers feeling such pride in what's come together and their involvement in it is just a very happy moment.

Charli: Well, that's just a lovely note to end this episode on, so thank you both. It's a stunning brand, and I think if the brand can spark joy in lawyers and everyone that sees it, then that's a job well done, I'd say. So congratulations once again to both of you on a fantastic project. And yeah, as Duncan said, looking forward to seeing, you know, what's to come in the next kind of in the coming months and in the coming years with Axinn. And yeah, well, hopefully you can keep us posted, Julie.

Julie: Will do, and thanks so much for having us.

Duncan: Yeah, thank you. It's been great to chat.

Charlie: Thank you both. Well, that's everything for this episode of CMO Series Digital Masterclass. You can subscribe to the podcast via all of your favorite podcast platforms or visit passle.net/digital masterclass for all of the episodes. Thanks for listening.