Charlie: Welcome to CMO Series Represents, a platform for diversity, equity and inclusion in professional services marketing. On today's very special episode, we're marking International Women's Day by celebrating the individual's accelerating action and driving gender equality forward in the industry. CMO Series Represents is brought to you by Passle, the AI-powered thought leadership platform for professional services. Find out more and request a demo at passle.net. In part one, we're extremely lucky to hear from leading voices in the legal marketing space, and we're delighted to be kicking off with two fantastic guests who share their insights on what's moving the dial on gender equality and why authenticity is vital.

Kate: Hi there, I'm Kate Fairweather and I'm the Business Development and Marketing Director globally at Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt & Mosle. There are many actions that firms can take to drive for gender equality. One of the things that we've been talking about recently in context of mentoring, is reverse mentoring, which I know is done by some firms. And I've been interested to hear people talking about it. But basically, it's what it says on the tin. It's where a senior person, benefits from hearing from a junior person about all aspects of their life, their attitude towards careers, the things that hold them back, and the things that encourage them. And I think sometimes, you know, some senior people, particularly in law firms, they can be in their 60s and 70s. They can be either, sex, absolutely. But sometimes they're a long, long way away from a Gen Z starting out on their career. I think the first role model that inspired me was in an interview for the law firm that I trained at, Mishcon de Reya in London. And I'd applied to five firms. And that was the only firm in which a female partner interviewed me. And I remember the partner, she was head of the department. She was called Sandra Davis, and she was wearing an incredibly chic trouser suit. And the fact that there was a female equity partner in itself was as rare as a hen's tooth in, you know, the early 1990s when I was interviewing. And I found it incredibly inspiring. And I sat there thinking, I want to be you. I literally sat there thinking, I want to be you. And it didn't occur to me that I couldn't be from my first interview at Mishcons. And, you know, although Sandra and I only worked together for six months when I was in her department I still remember that and I just you know it was the fact of her being there and she was unapologetically in her jewellery with her fabulous hair and you know wasn't wasn't dressed in a kind of mannish suit in the way that people did in the early days when you saw women coming through, so yeah for those reasons I think a she was there and b she was authentically herself so I think in that sense, she was ahead of her time.

Laura: Hi, my name is Laura Ottley, and I'm the CMO for Addleshaw Goddard. I mean, I think the first thing I would say about gender equality is it has to be seen as a business, not as a women's issue. That's always the risk with this, is that it's seen as a female issue. I think the minute we think about it from a business perspective, it's all about making sure that we're getting what's right for the business, and that's for our people and for our clients and so we need to ensure that we continue to get the right investments and sponsorship to make sure that we really create that lasting impact for women it's not just a nice to have it is something that we need in order for us to do the right thing by our people and by our clients we we lead from the front on that so you have to have a balanced leadership of different genders you have to ensure that there's transparency around everything you do because you can't make changes or expect people to buy into those changes unless we're super transparent about what we're doing. I think advancing gender equality is something that can sometimes feel too big. And actually, we need to think of the small steps that make a massive difference to giving women more impact in business. For me, it's really simple. I had a CMO who I will give a shout out to, Linda Bennett, who at the time really taught me the importance of being myself. And I think in order to get gender equality we do need women to be able to work and do the best that they can in the way that they is right for them, and I think it's really important to encourage to be themselves and not try to be more masculine or try to do things in a different way and for me that really small piece of advice has massively stuck with me don't change be you and I think I would encourage everybody, you know, to think in that way. And for men to encourage women to be themselves and to not have to change to be like them to move things forward. So small steps that can make massive difference and give women more confidence.

Charlie: Our next cohort of guests share their experiences and the influential figures who have inspired them and delve into the importance of female representation in legal marketing.

Mercedes: I'm Mercedes Galindez and I am the head of marketing at Slaughter May. There are so many things that firms can do to drive gender equality. One of the key ones that from a marketing perspective we can do is really think about representation, female representation. So what I mean by this is, say, for example, you're doing a podcast series, making sure that you have a good representation of women on that podcast series. And it's not just about the name on the billboard. It's also about how much airtime you give to that female voice because having representation, having women in public spaces speaking up, having their voice heard, it's so important to create role models and really let know all of the women that come behind that you could actually get there, that you are important, that you are visible, that you have a seat on the table. So for me, representation is incredibly important and something that it's actually in our control to be able to deliver. I don't have a single story to tell, but what I can say is that I have worked under the leadership of so many incredibly talented women. And just, you know, to mention some of them, Michelle T. Davies, Judith Green, Laura Otley, Deborah Fengler, Jane Edwards, Michelle Holford. These women in positions of power have been incredible in furthering gender equality just by existing just by fulfilling their roles and making the way for the next generation making the way for myself. I am now head of marketing at Slaughter & May because there's been other women taking positions where decisions are being made and and where we really can shift the way that we run business, so that it is in a way that is more towards gender equality. So all these women and more, but just existing and doing the roles, they had been making a difference for the next generations. And I am hopeful that what I'm doing today will also be in benefit for the generations of women the time that will come after.

Emma: Hi, I'm Emma Sosner. I'm the Global Marketing Director and Business Development Director at Spencer West. From my experience, gender equality is not just about treating everybody the same. So to drive gender equality forward, it's about recognising individuals for their potential and giving them the tools that they need to be able to succeed. It really taps into the discussion around equality versus equity because we know that many women not all women but many have significant caregiving responsibilities and being able to provide flexible working arrangements and allowing them to structure their work day in the way that allows them to excel professionally whilst also enjoying their personal lives it's so valuable and it this isn't about just hitting targets it's about valuing people as entire human beings and allowing our colleagues to balance work and personal lives which then allows them to become more engaged more productive and more fulfilled so sure we we all need to put the work in but compassion empathy and understanding human needs really can create a thriving workplace and I think you get a lot more out of people when you take that approach. So of course there's the traditional things like blind hiring. Redacting personal information from CVs and reducing the unconscious bias and those things are also important but for me fundamentally driving equality forward starts with creating environments where everyone can achieve their potential and not just expecting people to fit into rigid moulds. I've had the privilege of working alongside many incredible women who have really paved the way for gender equality. Often they've made personal sacrifices and it's sometimes hard to see them as they're giving up on aspects of their own personal lives in order to achieve greater things at work. But today I'd actually like to talk about my colleague, Kate Rowbottom. She is the practice director and an amazing superstar at Spencer West. And she has had this remarkable ability to really push me towards professional success. But also, she is constantly reminding me that burnout is not the cost of achievement. And she really advocates for building strong teams and empowering colleagues around you so that when we as leaders and as female leaders need to take a step back or we need to catch our breath or we've got things going on at home, the team around us hold the fort. And I think because of her leadership, I've learned to balance being full-time mum of three, as well as being able to contribute meaningfully to the success of Spencer West and stay present in all aspects of my life. And Kate's approach really demonstrates that levelling up those around us not only supports individuals, but can strengthen the entire organization.

Margie: My name is Margie Hinckley, and I am the Chief Business Development and Marketing Officer for the Americas at A&O Sherman. Based on my experience and thinking about what firms can do to drive gender equality forward, you know, this is a tough one because there are two sides of this. One is we really need to focus on it and make it a priority. And I.Or continue to make it a priority, but then there's the other side of it where you want this to just be ingrained in the everyday. So from my perspective, what I see both from my team and thinking about the fee earners and the very rigorous environment that they grow up in as associates and then partners, my answer to that would be, I think we need to continue to evolve and be flexible in what it means to be an associate, what it means to be a director of business development. A manager of business development, and have flexibility within roles. And what do I mean by that? I mean everything all the way down to hybrid working, to hours that we work. Obviously, in the business development realm, it's a bit challenging because we really need to be partner-facing and, in some cases, client-facing in order to do our jobs and be successful at our jobs. So I think we need to continue to think of ways and how we can be flexible to allow for individuals. However they identify from a gender perspective, to be flexible in what they do and how they deliver within their roles, meeting the expectations, obviously, of what the firm needs and what's going to deliver and drive revenue. If I had to think of one person who has come up throughout my career and making a significant impact on gender equality, there's one person who comes into mind immediately, and her name is Loretta Cecil. She was, at the time I got to know Loretta, she was the executive vice president and general counsel at a medical device company. She is someone that I started working with I was an account manager for this particular client, and the entire team that I was working with from my firm included the relationship partners were men, and some of the leads within the associate teams were also males. And so whenever we would have these relationship calls, I was the only female representing our firm. And being on the business development side and our typical position, depending on the opportunity, is to lead from behind. And that often means that the partners are leading the conversation and the agenda. What stuck out to me about Loretta was the fact that she would begin every call with, first of all. Asking how everyone's lives were. And one thing that always stood out to me from that was that she would start with me. And she would really, this general counsel, I was the director of business development at the time, and this general counsel really really took the time to get to know me and to get to know me beyond my role in our client relationship. And she asked about it and she was thoughtful, and she recalled what we had talked about in prior meetings. She also took the time throughout the discussions and updates to seek my views and seek my opinions. So it really, just within that individual example, it promoted the diversification of how we ran these calls and really made sure that everyone was included and, you know, everyone had an opportunity to contribute some area of the relationship and the expertise that we were communicating and or updating the client on. What was interesting was this Loretta is someone that her whole life, her whole career, she has really been an advocate for women in professional services and within companies. And she has an incredible team that she has put together that at the time was largely female-based and they followed her as she moved companies and moved roles. They followed her and she really fostered them and put them forward and supported them. And that was something that really stuck out to me in every single conversation. And, you know, when we went to go nominate her for various industry awards, it was just a beautiful story to tell because it really illustrated her efforts to promote women within large companies and support them in being able to take on large roles and also do things like have a life or, you know, support their families. So that was something that has stuck out to me for years. She continues to sit on boards of life sciences companies, and she just is just an incredible woman.And I think it's the type of pioneer that really we need more of. And she's someone that has influenced the way I lead and how I support women and individuals who are starting young and really show opportunity to develop into a leader, future leader. So she is who I would highlight as having the most impact.

Charlie: Our final guests today shine a spotlight on the people who have shaped their careers and discuss the power of using your voice to accelerate gender equality.

Jeanne: Jeanne Hammerstrom, Chief Marketing Officer at Benesch. Actually, I don't think there's just one. Of course, I'm never one for just a few words. I think there are a few, though. First, probably finding a champion who can help you succeed, no matter what gender it is in the workplace, and then pay it forward, especially women, and then ask for a seat in the room.But only if you're going to add value to that room. Just don't ask for the seat. So I'm going to answer this probably a little differently because I've surrounded myself with some pretty strong women. And I could point to a number of friends in the legal marketing industry like Laura Meherg and Tara Weintritt at Wicker Park Group and Chris Fritsch at CLIENTSFirst. Beth Cuzzone at Intapp and PR gurus like Cheryl Boehm and Tracy Stewart. I mean, I could go on. Nancy Kavinsky at Creative Zip and Alicia Suter and the women at Growth Play. But these women found needs not being served in our legal community and found a way to service them, but also advance gender equality in a lot of areas that, you know, at one time were not in their reach as owners of their businesses. We also know all the female CMOs who have made it not only to the C-suite, but actually have been participating in a member of a law firm boardroom. I really get so much energy from all these women I named and those I didn't have a chance to name, but mostly their willingness to share with others is really meaningful.

Lydia: My name is Lydia Martin. I'm the Senior Communications Manager at Stewarts. For me, the one thing that firms can do to help drive gender equality forward is to invest in an open and supportive culture. Statistic out there that say that 1 in 10 women in their 30s is out of the labour market because of caring responsibilities compared to 1 in 100 men in their 30s. We all have shared parental leave policies or agile or flexible working policies in place.But I really think that unless people know they're there and know that it's an actual option to take these then that they are just policies, so it's really about bringing them to life and creating that culture where everybody can take additional time can change their working pattern to help juggle work responsibilities and out of work responsibilities. And I think that allowing men as well as women to create that helps share the burden and that will really drive forward gender equality. Yeah, sharing a story of somebody who has made an impact in advancing gender equality during my career is a real hard one because I have a couple or a few people actually. The first one that springs to mind is Funmi Galaru. Funmi used to do work at Stuarts. She is now International Compliance Council at Bracewell. But while she was here at Stewarts, she really drove forward the diversity and inclusion agenda when it was set up at Stewarts and she also got me involved in one of the focus groups that helped me realise I can add my voice to the conversation. She helped with projects including kind of gender inclusive language at the firm and she really to me put these issues on the agenda. Which really kind of helped get me involved, really. So a big shout out to Femina. Currently, I'm working alongside Amy Heath, who is a partner in our medical negligence team at Stewart's. She is the ultimate feminist, and her passion for this is just so infectious to be around. And she really drives forward things on our gender parenting and carers focus group. It's also, she's just a lovely person, a great lawyer and just really great to be working alongside her. So I think the work she's doing now is really great and definitely worth a mention. The last person that I want to note here is a former colleague, Andy Hooper, who is a marketing professional. He's on a career break at the moment, but I used to work with him and I just think he's one of the greatest allies I've ever come across in my career and he's he's he's just really really helped make it obvious that it's not just something that women can progress but it's something that everybody can add their voice to so I learned so much from him while I was working with him.

Rachel: So I'm Rachel Smith, and I am the Director of Business Development and Marketing at Cripps. One key action to take gender equality forwards I guess is always quite difficult because there's so so much that that you can do and there's probably you know a multitude of things to build on. I think for me a lot of firms are already doing a lot and there's training etc in place but in terms of when you look at the data not much is changing so actually it's about how do you really embed the behavior so it's going beyond that training around gender bias and that for me is about really everybody collectively men and women calling out gender assumptions as and when they see them because usually they're such micro things. And that's things like in, you know, in meetings where quite often you'll have an equal number of men and women, sometimes even more women, but it tends to still be the male voices that will dominate the conversations. So thinking about what, how do we encourage women to speak more? Because women tend to be naturally more reflective or they may be more inclined to sit back and wait their turn, etc. So how do we encourage women to speak up more and have more of a voice? And it's actually coaching and training, but also accepting that actually different people have different communication styles and giving them the opportunity that may be outside of that meeting to have a voice in different platforms. And I think coupled with that is around mentoring and making sure that we've got enough female role models in a sort of structured way so that people have mentoring programs in place and that we recognize the needs of women and that women bring something different to the table. So we're not trying, it's not a competition, you know, women aren't trying to be like men, you know, we both bring different skills and values to the table. So it's celebrating those differences rather than feeling like they have to sort of conflict or compete with each other. I think in terms of advancing gender equality, I'll probably think back most recently, actually, to one of our female partners at, which is Victoria Symons, who is our head of corporate Cripps. And she, in recent years, has been sort of spearheading what we call our female leaders campaign. And we did some research, which showed that, you know, around 18% of SMEs are female-owned. And that hasn't changed significantly over the last decade.And when Victoria sort of looked back on her own career and the businesses that she asked for, she realized she could probably count on one hand the number of those that were female-owned and realized that actually, you know, as we were saying, we think it's moved so much further on. But actually, the reality is, when you look at the numbers, it really hasn't. And so she's been really proactive in supporting women within the corporate group of joining mentoring programs, setting up their own. So we've got several female-led programs within M&A and other groups. We did a female leaders report last year but she also led on what we call our empower her program which we got 12 female business leaders together and out of our research one of the biggest barriers for female-led business growth was around funding and their confidence to get to access funding and so we ran a program whereby they had training and support to actually pitch for funding and then at the end of the program they were put in front of investors so they could actually you know try it in in a safe and secure environment to to pitch for investment so we're doing things like that to to really try and support female leaders and female-led businesses  but and then I think separate from what she's done in that sort of more formal structured way it's actually just again just calling out some of those gender assumptions that we make every day and that's just with things like our networking and how can we make that more inclusive and you know we've always done sort of golf days which tend to you know be led by men and the vast majority of the people who go are quite middle-aged men and actually is there a more inclusive networking that we could do that celebrates, again. Gender diversity and, well, all diversity, actually. And so she's been calling out a lot of those kind of assumptions as well as mentoring her own women in the M&A group.

Charlie: That's all for part one of our CMO Series Represents International Women's Day special. Stay tuned for part two and follow the Passle CMO Series Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.