Charles: Authentic, human-centred stories have long been a staple in B2C marketing, but they’re much less common in the world of professional services. With the rise of digital, the fast-paced media landscape and shrinking attention spans, marketers must work harder than ever to make an impact. In this episode of the CMO Series, I’m lucky to welcome Paul Askew, the Global Strategic Campaigns Manager at Withersworldwide. Paul joins us to discuss the power of storytelling in professional services marketing as we take a deep dive into their highly successful campaigns, 'Global Rethinkers', 'The Discourse', and 'Defining Moments', created in partnership with the Financial Times.

Charlie: The CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle. Passle makes thought leadership simple, scalable and effective so professional services firms can stay front of mind with their clients and prospects when it matters most. Find out more and request a demo at Passle.net. Now back to the podcast.

Charles: Welcome to the CMO Series podcast, Paul. 

Paul: Well, thanks for having me. Delighted to be here.

Charles: So to kick things off, can you start by sharing a bit about your career journey and perhaps when storytelling became integral to your approach to marketing?

Paul: Sure. It's quite an unusual career path, I think, so I'll try and be brief. I actually wanted to be an architect as a kid. Sadly, I didn't have the maths, but I'm still quite passionate about architecture, history and construction. But I actually started out career-wise as a project assistant in financial services before joining Osborne Clark and developing as a project manager, I guess, in what we now call a business transformation function. And then I moved on into marketing and BD from there and did a fair bit of CIM training along the way. So I guess I should say this for the benefit of your listeners. I've worked in numerous BD and marketing roles, leading marketing BD for large practice groups to regional teams. And I guess it's fair to say a common denominator would be there's always been a lot of variety in the roles, plenty of challenges. And I guess I'm one of those weird people who thrives on change. And so I'd say in summary, my early career was very much about questioning the status quo. How can we be more efficient, do things better, challenge the norm? And I think these things are really sort of ingrained in my approach. And I think it's fair to say that I credit a lot of what I've achieved in my career in those early days.You know, I've had a lot of experience working with some really fantastic people. And I've been lucky to work with people who will entertain my ideas, even if they're a bit wacky. And I think that's been really important for me. Storytelling. So I guess two things.

Firstly, I've always been really interested in brand and culture and also how businesses leverage that to engage externally and manage brand perception it's fascinating a bit nerdy perhaps but but it floats my boat and I think even more so now that we see the public at large are less happy to be simply sold to and that we see more people holding businesses to account and I think that that's probably terrifying to some people but I do think there's a huge opportunity in this sort of new environment that we're in and very challenging environment, just for marketing and brand strategies to really evolve to be a lot more authentic to be more human and I think that's where the storytelling comes in and like I should say probably that I've I've always thought of law firms as brand-led businesses and I appreciate that might make some people wince, but in a world where legal services are largely the same, you know, I'm sure everyone will be nodding with agreement. You know, your brand is incredibly important. We know this, it's not new news, but we think about some of the big international firms in the B2B area, you know, we're seeing some incredible sort of extensions of service delivery. Incorporating consultancy and deep research initiatives. And I think it's really, really interesting to see how the sector is developing and evolving. I think it's quite exciting. 

Charles: And if you think about, for a second, outside of the legal industry, is there a brand or a company that you're sort of looking at and sort of saying, I want to be doing a bit more of that? 

Paul: Oh, that's an interesting question. I mean, they're not straightforward answers, I'm afraid, but I guess lots of them. And I think I'm very engaged both with B2B brands and B2C brands. I look a lot at the lifestyle sector, how they engage with consumers. So a lot of trends, not all obviously, but a lot of trends that you see originating in sort of lifestyle and like consumer world, they do sort of filter through to the business environment, you know, albeit often slowly. Only, but I did, there's a lot of brands that I look at and it depends what you're doing, really. But I mean, I think, you know. When I approach a certain issue or topic and I want to do some research, just for my own know-how, I always look at a very, very wide range of businesses. I think it's really important. I know something like if you're looking at diversity as a topic in business and how that's evolving. I definitely look at some big consumer brands, people like Apple, etc. How are they reporting on it? What are they doing? Because it's really hard to get it right. And I think taking a leave for those big organizations who've done the thinking and looking at what you can take from that, or at least set as an overarching long-term strategy, I think is really important in all aspects of marketing. And I think one of the interesting things now is that, you know, business, culture, leadership, they're so, so important, you know, and interlinked now. And it's at the forefront of why people buy, you know, in terms of your brand messaging. Do I like this business? Is it aligned with my values? And I think that works as a corporate entity or as an individual or investor that you are thinking about those things even if it's not necessarily consciously in front of mind that you are thinking about what fits and what is that about. 

Charles: Yeah that that really makes sense and I want to pick out something you said earlier on about it was about telling authentic human stories and can you elaborate on why this approach is particularly effective for people in the legal sector at this point in time?

Paul: Sure, I mean I don't want to criticize things like thought leadership and there's a huge role for thought leadership still but I think that that's a space that's really evolving but I think that you know because of this there's more increased transparency you know in the world that we live in we see this all the time now and as I said consumers Businesses are much more savvy about who they buy it from, and that decision-making process is tricky. Purpose is really important. We've seen a lot of major international firms embed purpose in their core positioning, messaging, and we're seeing a lot more of that. I think that's going to be a huge trend. But it's really challenging stuff for law firms, from a brand perception perspective, and how you balance what you're actually doing with your brand messaging. That is a big challenge. But I think in terms of the authenticity. Law firms, whether you're working with a corporate entity or an individual or an investor, a fund, whatever, there's stories of ambition there. And people are very often very personally motivated, and we see that a lot more these days. And so I think getting personal is really important, I guess, for several reasons. 

But I think just from a pure marketing perspective we know we've seen this huge shift generally towards the more personal across media and I think law firms and businesses generally need to just harness that really and be unafraid to be a lot more human in the way they communicate tell those stories, you know give clients a platform, you know others that work in this in the arena that you work in could be someone who's a real industry figure it could be you know someone who's more on a consumer side but delivering some really important messaging. How can you use that really to tell a little authentic story for your brand because you know I guarantee there are many there that will hold you to account if you're not really living and breathing your so-called brand values and so I think you know that is more that's very very important but I guess not to be afraid of it really and I'd be open-minded about it, think about how you can best align your brand you know in the right way for the right reasons and tell a genuine story I guess where it's more challenging for law firms it's where you know you're providing legal services because everyone needs legal services but also, for example an obvious one if you're trying to on board a client who's involved with climate tech for example but in the other hand you're acting for a client who's doing a mining and metals client who's you know doing some pretty heavy stuff in one part of the world that's not a message that's going to really sell very well and I think it's making sure that you're very clear about your business operations and also how to elevate your brand but also the things that are really important in terms of future proofing your business and and things that you might have to do less of or let go of, in order to evolve for the right reasons, not just because you're trying to pay lip service to it, but it has to be a genuine story. Does that make sense?

Charles: So actually, that links really nicely to what I wanted to dig into today. And it was around the marketing campaigns you ran in partnership with the FT. I believe it was the Discourse. What were the names of the other two?

Paul: So we did a few things, really. We've done two campaigns with the FT, the Discourse, the most recent, and then Define Your Moment, which was the first one.

Charles: That's right.

Paul: And then we had an umbrella piece around the last one, around Global Rethinkers, which had a few different components to it. And I think just taking a step back in terms of what we were trying to achieve you know with us has evolved and diversified a lot over the last 25 years you know we were looking to really think about how we can communicate the brand message the brand that we are today the kind of clients that we work with the innovation that we're supporting them with and I guess to some degree being brutally honest trying to address and rebalance the traditional view of a private client firm so I think we're much more than that but it's often hard to sort of articulate and you know we wanted to because of the growth we've had particularly in Asia and the US we really wanted to do something that helped to reinforce our brand following that strong growth and just try and make sure that it's kind of feels very sort of inclusive forward thinking and that you know it's less complicated because it has many fans And it's very complex in terms of our offering and, you know, it's very, very diverse.

But how do you sort of bring that to life in a way that people can understand it? So there's a lot of different things that we're trying to achieve with that. And I certainly felt into coming up with the ideas for this. I really wanted to try and take a bold step by putting clients first and having them tell their stories on a high-profile platform. I wanted to do that in a really genuine way that is not very salesy, that really just tells the story of the clients we work with, but also the innovation and innovative thinking that they're employing and how we're supporting them. So a very gentle sales message, if you like, but putting clients at the heart of it. And we're lucky we have some incredible clients. We work with so it was a really interesting proposition and the FT for us was a perfect partner because of the global reach and their targeted audience you know c-suite decision makers high worth individuals investors etc you know it was ideal for us and obviously we worked with the FT from a PR perspective but we hadn't done anything proactively because of a sponsored campaign and those kind of things so you know there was a bit of a leap of faith and to some degree although I would definitely say a calculated one from my perspective but it was really really exciting to kind of bring that to life and I think that when you know when I first approached the leadership here with proposals you know with our PR we were kind of expecting a more cautious outcome pretty understandably but actually I was really thrilled that we came away with a green light but then of course the pressure was on then to we deliver and when you're sort of in new territory that was we were quite concerned about that so it was a big undertaking initially.

Charles: But for the benefit of the listener, can you just give a quick summary of what each of the campaigns involved? The discourse is that's when you spoke to innovative thinkers and defining moments. That's when you spoke with CEOs and leaders about their business. Is that correct?

Paul: Defining Moments was the first campaign, and we had some quite high-profile individuals involved in that campaign. We weren't really 100% clear on exactly the angle we wanted to take with each of these individuals. We really wanted them to tell a genuine story but it was actually it happened just after covid so we were kind of in this period of the sort of great resetting and sort of reflection and what came out of those interviews is and for many of them actually is that there have been this sort of reckoning of what they're doing where they're at and what they're doing next and you know that sort of that personal story I guess was even stronger than we anticipated that was really the the first one and the second one the discourse was it was actually looking at I guess even more focused on I guess the change makers really so whether they're founding and driving forward businesses and initiatives to really tackle some of the big global issues that we face today and I felt very strongly about that we really wanted to try and get to the heart of this because we hear amazing client stories every day but actually telling those stories externally was really important for us and so we worked with partners across our business to identify clients who would be open to working with us on it and again that it was so so successful and we're very grateful to all of them for being so frank and honest about their journey their personal stories and particularly those you know post COVID who, you know, had. You know, it was a bit of a pivotal moment for some of them and they were very open about that, which was, it was great to read and, you know, and very successful for us from a marketing perspective.

Charles: Yeah, they're super interesting. What we'll do is we can pop a link so any listeners can check this out. But, you know, you've had some fantastic guests, Dr. Bea Bakshi, talking about how AI is being used in cancer diagnosis. And Rinaldo Brutoco, if I pronounced him right, talking about clean green fuel and the future of the hydrogen economy. And then talking about more high profile folk in you had Idris and Sabrina Elba talking about their sort of new business that they're up to so yeah some really interesting stuff and we'll add a link so listeners can check that out.

Paul: Right, thank you, yes I mean all of those stories were incredible and it's been it's just the most fascinating and rewarding thing to work with clients on this and you hear of course when you're asking the question do you hear a lot more of the background story which really drives people and as I said before it's often very personal and it's really interesting to read and this is why I think it's so important for law firms to look at this because it's a great way to talk about what you do in a non-salesy way and I think there's room for the personal in everything whether that's sort of a founder investor side which is obviously easy for us as it will because that's very coarse for our audience but also in a B2B environment there is often a big ambition story behind a lot of things whether it's a transaction whether it's a major sort of purpose-led endeavor or a CEO trying to turn around a business or meet a certain challenge there is a lot of personal in it and I think it's we've shown it's very very engaging it really helps to differentiate.

Charles: Fantastic so one of the most important things about any marketing campaign is the outcome and the impact. So can you share a little bit about how you measured the success of each of these campaigns?

Paul: Sure, I'll do that. And I can't give away the crown jewels, but I will do my best to not rule you out there. First of all, I know that I'm a bit biased, but I think, you know, and others have said this, that the FT campaigns have had real standouts. I think it's the sort of frank and open nature of the conversations and that there's not sort of a direct selling piece. And that it was, as I just said, very, very personal from the get-go. And, you know, we're very grateful for those sort of people sharing those experiences and I have to say in terms of success I had my heart in my mouth when it launched I was really unsure about how the first one was going to land which I guess is natural but it really exceeds all of our expectations which was just wonderful but in terms of marketing successes I think you know we're talking about omni-channel campaigns here. And I think alongside the FT, we did a lot of work on our side, on social and digital channels generally, with supporting content and lots of promotional stuff to really support that and make sure that where people land on our site from the FT, there's a lot more meat to get into. And that's really important and in terms of measurement of course it's all digital so you can measure all of this both on the FT side but also everything that we did as well and bringing all of that together really helps you get a good sense of which content is playing well which channels are working for you know the style of the communication how it's positioned, how it's targeted you know how that's working you know  it's none of it is is always perfect but the great thing about this is that when you've got an ongoing campaign is that you can test and learn to a certain degree and optimize some things, do lots of other things. And we did that a lot. Same with the first campaign, we learned a lot with that. And again, you can get so many metrics from all of this, which is really great when people are asking internally about the success and how things are progressing. You can actually come up with some hard stats, which is great.

I should also say that, you know, with both of the FT campaigns. Brand engagement for the firm, you know, sharply increased. And it was the first time we'd done this sort of major sort of media campaign per se. So, you know, being able to use a lot of digital tools to assess brand engagement was really great for us. You know, and broadly, we saw some of the key groups, they were 50% more likely to use Withers for legal services, having seen the campaign content. So you know, great sort of stat there. But we did see a lot of measurement around brand engagement throughout the campaign and post campaign, and the two campaigns together as well. Again, that was a really great curve to see. And I think what was great about these stories is that there is a sense of ambition and passion and positivity. We asked about particular challenges and background and issues, but actually with all of them, generally, there was very much a big uptick in terms of what they're trying to achieve. And I think people want to hear positive stories. We're not afraid to talk about the challenges but actually who's doing the work and I think that's one of the things that was important for us to say that these people are doing the work the solutions are there, to some of these problems and so give being able to give a platform to some of that was wonderful so it worked well in terms of all the stats very very happy with all of that exceeded a lot there. Almost all of the FT benchmarks in terms of engagement which is wonderful but also our own engagement our own channels as well the engagement was really really high but then of course  it is wonderful to have this campaign which we still get comments about today even though the last one was you know early last year so you know all in all very very successful for us. 

Charles: You've got this fantastic campaign now I feel like I kind of need to ask this question. Were there any challenges or barriers that sort of you've learned from going through that process?

Paul: I mean, absolutely, 100% challenges. I think, you know, you know, law firms, no, we're not, we often, we're not in BBC, we're not geared towards creating, you know, very, very high spec comms campaigns and then across in the multiple channels. But I do think we need to get a lot better as an industry at engaging across channels. And I think there's a lot of firms that are doing that really well. Branded thought leadership is one thing. Client stories with no sort of obvious sales pitch, I think are quite tricky. And if I'm honest, that was what I was worried about most of all is do people see value in this. And so we really had to explain that in a lot of detail. And it is branded content, but it's light touch. So we definitely needed to kind of be clear about that and where we saw the value. As I said before, a lot of the challenge was to make sure that there was a strong range of supporting content. And we were doing a lot on our side of the fence as well as the FT to really extend the life of the content and get a lot of the marketing value from it. And I think that's really, really important. I think, you know, I wouldn't approach a media campaign and think, right, that's it, job done, tick in the box. I think most marketers listening to this would agree. It's really about multiple touch points and really not being afraid to dive in and do something different and test and learn as much as you can. 

It's cheesy but I think you know not being afraid to fail is really important. And that could be small things just trying new platforms new ways of doing things a different way of doing paid social or something like that because it you know you can learn a lot from that and then you know and you can optimize it as and when so you're not even talking about huge investment either so that's really helpful but again it does take a lot of time there's a huge amount of effort that goes into all of this so that was a bit of a challenge and I'm not sure that challenge is going to go away I think the more that you anyone tries to sort of pull rabbits out the hat or do something different there is always going to be an element that we really have to go for it and get stuck in and it is going to be a huge time commitment so that is a bit of a challenge let's be honest it's not always easy to get decision making done in a law firm especially you know we've got some international stakeholders and it can be certainly it can feel like waving through treacle I think you know you'll try you've got a great idea but you just don't want to take the edges off it so I think having the right decision makers at the very start is key you know we know getting biners is critical but then I think trying to find the right way and quickest way from sort of A to B on any given aspect so that you really keep up momentum and enthusiasm because these are really exciting projects and you can easily lose sight of that if you get bogged down in too much of the bureaucracy internally. So never easy, but I think trying to find the right way through to quick decision-making is critical. The other thing I would say is that I tend to work or put together virtual campaign teams across the firm, so we have the right level of input from the US, Europe and Asia. I think we need to help keep things focused and really build a sense of global collaboration from our team. So we've got the local connectivity. We're very much focused on the global objectives we're trying to achieve. Not always easy, but really worth putting the spade working to make sure that that's happening. And again, it's never perfect, but I think trying to keep people in the loop as much as you possibly can is critical.

Charles: Yeah. Now, Paul, you don't strike me as someone who likes to take it easy and you're going to rest on your laurels now. So looking ahead, what's coming next? What's in the pipeline? Have you got any ideas or exciting stuff you're working on that's really integrating personal storytelling into your market strategy? I don't want you to give any of your secrets away, but just some of the exciting things you've got in the pipeline.

Paul: Okay so I would love to say that we have everything perfected and polished but marketing the marketing landscape is always shifting and it's you know it seems to be moving quicker than ever I think anyone listening would probably agree that it's always a struggle to keep the day-to-day machine rolling whilst also thinking about what's coming around the corner you know it does keep us in our jobs which is great but it's really hard to see what's going around the corner and think about what it means for the firm what it means for you know our clients. What's really interesting what's what are the different angles that we can explore and often you could be faced with a myriad of you know things that you want to get involved with so you know sorting the wheat from the chaff thinking about what's really valuable is, you know, always key. Without giving the game away, I do have some plans underway and we are, I'm hoping it's going to be really super exciting. You know, we've got some good, lots of good ideas and never short of ideas, but it's just trying to, as I said, whittle that down, focus our efforts and think about how we can really bring those to life. I guess no secret would be that, you know, we really want to think about more focusing on who's, who has the really interesting stories, is who's really changing the game but again thinking about what's coming around the corner you know we are obviously in a very very interesting world right now lots of challenges lots to be concerned about but also lots of positivity and I think that is something which keeps me going and trying to think about telling those positive stories what's really interesting and who is really inspiring you know because there was a lot there was a lot to be inspired them out. And I think that's really important that we focus on that. So hopefully that will sort of frame the next steps for us. 

But it's certainly something we do think about all the time now in terms of storytelling. An example would be International Women's Day this year. We were looking at gender diversity in tech, and there are some appalling stats about the number of women involved in the tech sector. And you kind of think for the most innovative sector in the world, why is gender parity so poor and getting worse? And we just thought well let's just ask some questions let's ask some of our female investor and founder clients, what do they think is driving this in the sector? I think we sent an email out on a Thursday to a group of clients, and by Monday or Tuesday the following week, we had a response from almost every single person, a very full response, and they did not hold back. I think it's really important to not pay lip service to these things but actually try and get to the heart of what's causing these issues and give people the opportunity to share their views and bring that together. This isn't because we're trying to leverage marketing value from this, though, of course, there are some. It's because we genuinely care about supporting women in tech and want to understand the problems and how we can talk about them in a constructive way that challenges the norm to a certain degree but hopefully contributes to more awareness and some real change over time.  When you talk to clients about these issues, it's wonderful to hear the kind of responses you get and the passion behind what they're doing. Yes, it's definitely something embedded in what we are trying to do from a marketing perspective. We're not perfect, and I'm not the oracle here on storytelling, but it is something we see a huge amount of value in. Even from a pure marketing perspective, it's definitely where we see the highest engagement.

Charles: That's really cool to hear, and it's cool to hear you say it's not just a marketing activity but also about getting to know your clients and their stories. We look forward to seeing what's in the pipeline. We've now reached that point in the podcast where we like to do a quick-fire round and ask a few questions to get to know you, Paul, a little bit better. If you're ready, we'll jump right in.

Paul: Okay, I'm braced.

Charles: What are you listening to or reading right now?

Paul: Oh, wow. That is a big question. I mean, everything. I don't know about anybody else, but I struggle with focusing on things these days. There's so much coming at you. If anyone's mastered that, please let me know because I find it incredibly hard when you're interested in so many different things to really focus your attention. I used to read a lot as a kid, all day on a weekend at times. I've lost that art, really. But I'm still consuming a lot of information, and it's very much a broad church here in terms of interests. You might laugh at this, and perhaps this is an overshare, but I've recently gotten into YouTube. Now, this is not new news, but I've been interested in, this is the architect in me, I guess, people building off-grid homesteads in the Italian Alps or rural Portugal, and people who are taking complete wrecks of chateaus and rebuilding them from scratch pretty much on their own.  I've really got into it and into a group of younger people who are looking at creating off-grid communities and thinking about all the issues around communal living. They're doing it in a really cool way, with no impact on the environment, recycling everything. It sounds a bit hippie, but it's definitely not hippie. They're very tech-savvy.  I just find it fascinating and very therapeutic to watch. I'm not saying I want to run off and buy some land in Portugal and build a community, though watch this space, you never know. But I find that really interesting at the moment. I know I'm probably a bit late to the game on the YouTube front, but I'm really into it. It’s great.

Charles: What was your first job?

Paul: I grew up in the Yorkshire Dales. At 14, my mum got me a job as a kitchen assistant in a country pub. I was there until I think I was 17. I loved it. It was great. Definitely a different slice of life in the Yorkshire Dales, but I really enjoyed that.

Charles: Simpler times. 

Paul: Simpler times. You know, sailing for holidays, all of that sort of thing. 

Charles: So this could be either personally or professionally. What's one piece of technology you can't live without?

Paul: Oh, again, tricky one. I mean, my phone, obviously. If I don't write it down, I put something in my phone and set reminders for things, I'm completely lost. And I hope I'm not on my own with this, but I just have to get everything in my phone or my work diary. It has to go in there. It's just far too much going on. So yeah, I think my phone, that's a really boring answer.

Charles: No, no, it's the first thing that comes to your head. That makes sense. What's one small habit that you have that you think might help others?

Paul: I try to avoid too much mainstream media. I keep my news sources really broad with a few independent sources as well. I think it's really important, especially in this post-COVID world, not to make it all about work. Think about your passions outside of work where they cross over. I do a lot of that. It could be looking at UN reports on climate and impact or founders and tech stuff or personal stuff like architecture. Sometimes there's a bit of a Venn diagram where those things come together. I find for my own motivation and what I'm trying to do both in work and outside of work, I try and absorb a lot of different types of information. Does that sort of answer the question?

Charles: Yeah, that's good. What is your favorite place to visit and why?

Paul: That's an easy one for me. I don't know if anyone has heard of the Kootenays up in the mountains of British Columbia in Canada, but it's absolutely stunning. Much of Canada is. I'm very lucky my sister and her family live there, and I absolutely love it. Hiking in mountains, swimming in glacial lakes, that's my happy place, and it feels very remote from the world, which is lovely. I'm very lucky to be able to go there. I'm actually going very soon, so yeah, looking forward to that.

Charles: Lovely. I'm sure some of our Canadian listeners will know where that is, and I'm going to look on a map now, so I'm up to speed.

Paul: Yeah, it's a big trek to get there, but it's a real tonic from central London, that's for sure.

Charles: That'll be a fantastic break. Now, to wrap things up, I think we'll pull it back to why we jumped on the podcast in the first place. This might be a tough question to ask, but what is one piece of advice you would give to a marketer looking to integrate storytelling into what they're doing at their firm?

Paul: Trying to find an interesting angle that really resonates with broad public and business sentiment. Something that's really of the moment, which is quite hard. But I think if you can do that, it will generally result in really high engagement. That would be one key thing.

Charles: How much does it need to link to what the firm is about and what the firm is doing?

Paul: I'm sure others have lots of opinions on this. For me, as long as it's complementary and speaks to the kind of clients and the sort of work that you're trying to attract, it should work well. I don't think things have to be so literal. I think that's where people often fall down. But trying to find something that fits, that's complementary and interesting, where the sort of lifestyle crosses over with business, with professional issues that is the really interesting area.

Charles: Brilliant, well I think that is a nice spot to end on. Paul, thanks for coming on the series and telling us about your recent storytelling campaigns. What we will do is, we will pop a link in the description so folks can go and check that out. Thanks again for coming on and speaking to us.

Paul: An absolute pleasure, thank you so much.