Yasmin: Good morning, everybody. Afternoon, evening, from wherever you guys are coming in from. I'm your host, Yasmin Zand, and very excited to be joined by Silvia Van den Bruel, Marketing and BD Director at Hausfeld, and Lucie Allen, Managing Director at BARBRI International. Today, we're taking a deep dive into the impactful #MenopauseMatters movement. According to the CIPD in the UK alone, around 59% of women aged 45 to 55 who experience menopause symptoms report a negative impact on their work. Many face challenges such as reduced concentration, insomnia, and increased stress. Despite these challenges, only a quarter of organizations have policies in place to support menopausal women. Silvia and Lucie join us on the series to share the inspiration behind this vital campaign, #MenopauseMatters, and to discuss the support they garnered, recount the experiences that emerged during the process, and we'll also explore the creation and impact of the #MenopauseMatters guide the future of the campaign and how individuals and firms can get involved.

Charlie: The CMO series podcast is brought to you by Passle. Passle makes thought leadership simple, scalable, and effective so professional services firms can stay front of mind with their clients and prospects when it matters most. Find out more and request a demo at passle.net. Now back to the podcast. 

Yasmin: Welcome Silvia and Lucie. 

Lucie: Thank you, Yasmin. 

Silvia: Nice to see you, Yasmin. Thanks for having us.

Yasmin: Of course. So I think we'll just jump right into it. And I've got a series of questions here that I can't wait to dig into more. We'll start with you, Lucie, since you kind of kicked off this whole thing. Can you start by talking us through the driving factors for kickstarting the #MenopauseMatters movement and what you hope to achieve?

Lucie: That's a big question. It happens very organically, actually. And if I take you back to what would have been June or July 2023, I'll just describe a little bit about what happened to me. And I think that will kind of help position how Menopause Matters came to life. But back in June, July 2023, I was in the US and I was in a board meeting. You picture the scene, you know, a typical boardroom, lots of people sat around the table, deep in conversation. I had just finished presenting my update, quite animated and into the update that I was providing. And as I paused, I just suddenly felt that something just wasn't right. I felt really kind of damp in my knickers. I felt like something was just you know, what, what's happening to me. Felt really uncomfortable but given I was in this board meeting situation, I also immediately felt very vulnerable and almost embarrassed and just thinking, oh gosh what do I do? I just need to get out. I need to get to the toilet. And off I went, excused myself to the toilet, had a shock in the toilet about what had actually happened, which is essentially I'd flooded and I'd flooded all through my knickers and I'd floated all through my clothes. Luckily, in some respects, I was wearing a kind of navy blue jumpsuit that was a bit floaty. So it did hide some of the mess that was there. And I was desperately trying to clean myself up and look at myself in the mirror. But it was, you know, obvious to me, at least what had happened. I walked back into the board meeting, opened the door and just kind of called on somebody that I knew quite well, a woman. And there weren't very many women in this room, right? But just called on a woman and said, you know, can I borrow you for a second? And obviously she's looking at me a bit like well what are you doing like we're in a board meeting why do you want me to come out. She came out and she helped me and I asked her if you could see it and she said yes you can see it. And I was like oh god this is just really uncomfortable what do I do now do I just leave do I leave do I go back to the hotel do I get changed or do I stay and given what the meeting was and given the importance of the meeting and the fact that I really wanted to be there, I thought I'm going to stay. I'm going to stay. I'm going to go back in. 

As I walk back into the meeting, I walk around the table. And I'd pushed my chair out as I got up to go to the toilet and on my chair was blood as well. So not only had gone through all my clothes, it also got into this very light grey chair as well. In my mind, I'm sitting back on that chair thinking everybody around me knows what's happened here. Everybody knows what's happened. And I've just come back in and they're all going to be looking at me and thinking, you know, what's going on? I think in reality, in hindsight, when I think back to that, nobody was interested in that. Nobody was looking at that chair. Everyone was too interested in what they were trying to say and update in the meeting. But at that moment, it was really overwhelming. Anyway, the meeting progresses. All I can think about is just going to get changed, how I'm going to excuse myself from this meeting. Lunch is called. Everybody gets up from the table, apart from one chap who sat next to me. And he's actually quoted in our guide as well. But I turned to him and I said something along the lines of, can you help me? This has happened to me and I'm really afraid to stand up. And thank goodness, he just said, no problem. I will help you. I will get you another chair. Just stand up. It's okay. I'll sort this out for you. And he did. And the rest of the day continued. And, you know, I had time later on to go and get cleaned up. And the day continued, as I say. All of that being said, that was what happened to me. And I sat in that meeting, just thinking, oh my gosh, this is probably something that happens to more people. This is something that nobody talks about. I was totally unprepared for it. I had nothing with me. I wasn't due my period. It just happened. And I was shocked and overwhelmed. And that was in the June, July time, as I say. And I spent the next few months thinking about it and thinking I should probably say something. And LinkedIn is a great platform. I should probably say something and get this story out there. They roll forward to menopause awareness month in the last part of the year. And I thought, ideal time. I'm just going to be bold and I'm going to put it out on LinkedIn. And the response was incredible. And so I didn't start out saying, I'm starting this movement, I'm starting this menopause matters movement. But I put my story out there. And people responded. And there was obviously a desire, I think, to have a deeper, wider conversation. And so the genesis of kind of starting the movement was from that and people responding, a few of us getting together actually at Silvia's to talk in more detail and share our own experiences with each other. And that was really kind of the founding point for Menopause Matters.

Yasmin: That is an amazing story, mostly because what woman doesn't wake up every day and think, oh my God, this is like the worst thing that could happen to me. This is mortifying. That is like a fear that is instilled like day one of, you know, guide to being a woman.  This is the worst thing that can happen to you. And the fact that you're so open and able to share that with everybody is so wonderful and I'm so grateful that you get to tell me and of course the listeners the story because we should talk about it more like this happens to everybody, and so Silvia how did you get involved and what were your first steps to getting started?

Silvia: So Lucie and I probably met about one and a half years ago at a, we were sitting at the same table of an award ceremony. And so you know how it goes, you exchange business cards, and you follow each other on social media, and LinkedIn was one of them. And so obviously, I had seen her post. And when she was describing her like a horrifying experience. I sort of related to that and responded to it and actually menopause had always been something very close to my heart. Lucie is 10 years younger than I am so she goes perimenopause I went through the menopause so I have been trying to sort of like talk about it a little bit longer than she has you know and I have written posts about it on like small things that we can all do in the workplace that can make a big difference, et cetera. And so when Lucie then messaged me and said, hey, you reposted my post with a post of yourself, and I think it would be great to have a few like-minded people in one room, would you be up for that? And, you know, I obviously, I mean, it was music to my ears. Finally, someone who, like, really wanted to create a little bit of movement around it and open the conversation. So my firm volunteered the conference room and the drinks and the nibbles and sat around the table and talked about those stories and it really made us quite determined to do something about it and the rest is history as they say.

Yasmin: So aside from enticing people with drinks and nibbles because I know that would get me in the door, how did you and Silvia I'll ask you this because it sounds like you guys organize the event how did you guys bring other people on board and gain buy-in and trust, of course, around the movement?

Silvia: Yeah, so I think that the eight people around the table were all people that were connected in one way or the other to Lucie. So Lucie was sort of our common denominator. And, you know, we sort of sat around the table. We all work in professional services, so there was common ground. So we understood each other's sector and environment that we work in. The eight of us really immediately clicked and opened up. And, you know, we talked for about two hours and we all talked about our own stories. And it was actually quite lethargic to just be able to talk about our own personal stories. But what I thought was interesting is the people around the table were from a wide variety of ages. So it really went from like the beginning of the 40s to the beginning of 60s. So we all had our own experience. And it made me realize a couple of things which I thought were quite interesting, that each woman had had quite a different experience and that each experience had been quite impactful in its own right including we all had stories how it had impacted us in the workplace. Then I had heard of some symptoms that I had never heard of before because I think people always think about hot flushes and they think about the mood swings, you know, how we are always depicted as like in a bad mood and like lions and growling and being in a bad mood. But I hadn't heard about the joint pains and the anxiety and the thinning of the hair and the memory loss and stress and all these things. And then last but not least is I had never heard of the perimenopause. So even though I feel like I'm quite well-read and I was reasonably informed, I had never heard of it. And I didn't quite realize that actually these symptoms could affect women from their mid-30s onwards when they are still having their periods. So it made me realize that if this was our conversation in a small group and how it impacted me, then many others must feel the same way. And I think that was sort of the feeling amongst the room. And Lucie can sort of say that she felt that the same way. But one thing at the end of that evening was, you know, we all agreed we need to do something. And the first step is to remove the awkwardness around talking about,  you know, menopause, perimenopause, the impact, et cetera. And so that's what we set out to do.  

Yasmin: You know, Silvia, I had never heard of perimenopause till we spoke two weeks  ago, something nobody's ever talked to me about. And then I, as soon as you mentioned it, I Googled it and thought, oh my God, how come I've never heard of this before? And I've spoken to so many of my friends. They said, what is that? I've never heard of that before, which is crazy. 

 Silvia: It is crazy. And it is crazy because people have symptoms, and go to their GPs and the GPs have no idea that this is menopause or  perimenopause related. And some of the stories of the people around the table were exactly around that topic.  

Yasmin: Yeah. In light of that, Lucie, were there any stories that you and, I mean, I'm conscious we're trying to bring light sharing experiences, but equally they're also personal experiences, but are there any stories that you are willing to share with us today around that brainstorming conversation?

Lucie: Yeah, I think, and I think just to underscore a couple of points that Silvia made on that as well, all of this is about removing awkwardness and encouraging conversation. And I think one of the standout things in that room that we were together in at the end of last year was that everybody felt comfortable in being open. And I think that's absolutely our mission to encourage more people to feel comfortable being open and the other thing that really stood out to me and I'll share a story in a minute the other thing that really stood out to me was actually all of these things as Silvia said have happened to people and they're quite unique in their own experience but what's also amazing is what a fantastic group of powerful women came together and I think some of this can't be lost in this process like menopause is there's so many negative so much negativity around it. And it is all consuming, I think, to individuals as you kind of go through the various phases. But actually, women as they come out the other side are amazing individuals as well. And there's so much power in that. And I think that's something we've really got to talk about as well. I think some of the more humbling points that came through were just how much this can really impact individuals' confidence and their self-worth. And at a time in your life when you've been through the babies, perhaps if that was your route, or you've got to the point in your career that you're, you know, really happy and you're flourishing, and then wham, all of a sudden this hits you.  And that kind of impact on you know if you're senior flying high managing lots of people but your confidence is sucked and your self-worth is sucked I think that has an incredible impact on your ability to do your job and then potentially other people's confidence in your ability as well and again if we're not talking about that and not talking about those examples that people are sharing and that experience that people are sharing I think it just goes into that camp of kind of, oh, she's passed it or that's not, you know, her time's done. Let's move on to the next person when actually, as I say, it's getting through this experience and, you know, having a second lease of life on the other side of things, effectively.  

Yasmin: That's beautiful. Silvia, anything you wanted to add there?  

Silvia: I mean, my personal story was very much like that. My big thing was the sleepless nights. And I would be awake till 2, 3 a.m. in the morning. In addition, you know, once I was asleep, I would at least wake up once to either go to the toilet because I was overheating or had to get out to just cool down and then go back to bed. So I would sort of survive on three to four hours sleep. And that was like night in, night out. And you have like, this was also pre-COVID. So you have no option but to drag yourself out of bed, drag yourself to the office. I've always had heavy workload, you know, big projects, deadlines. And, you know, combined with the workload, high level of stress, it really resulted in gaining weight, no exercise. and it really actually resulted in alopecia, like quite severe alopecia. And I think if you would have asked my colleagues at the time whether they knew this was going on, I think none of them would have known because they would not have known that this was going on because I've always felt I couldn't tell anyone because, you know, who would understand? You know, I work in law. It's a very male-dominated environment. I think, and even though it has improved over the years, there are still so many aspects where women have to prove they are as good as, if not better than, men. And I just felt that I didn't want to give anyone more ammunition to make my life more difficult. So I think this is why I felt it is really key that we talk about this in the terms of the workplace. And I think this was also something that we agreed on amongst the eight women around the table, like, okay, we want to make change. We want to start a conversation. We want to create awareness. We want to drop this as a taboo subject, but we have to start somewhere. And we just felt that the workplace was really the place where we wanted to start. 

Yasmin: You mentioning that, Silvia, about how you were talking to your colleagues or even just being able to start these conversations. And I think this is more to both of you. And Silvia, maybe we'll start with you just because you just spoke and then Lucie will go to you next. Who was the first person you told at work that you were experiencing menopause and that you were having a hard time? Like, what did that conversation look like? If you can, if you don't mind sharing that. 

Silvia: I don't mind sharing it, but I didn't have the conversation. 

Yasmin: Wow. 

Silvia: So the only time when I've had the conversation is actually now when I've gone through most of it. So I still have like minor hot flushes, you know, but it's, you know, nothing as impactful. You know, I have the occasional sort of sleepless night, but it doesn't impact me as much as it used to. So I feel more comfortable now, but I never had the conversation. I would never, I've never went, because also there was never a structure. Like, where do you go? Do you talk to your male boss? I don't think so. Are you going to HR? Well, you know, I've always worked for fairly small firms and they didn't necessarily have, you know, it wasn't necessarily on their radar. So yeah, no, I never had the conversation. What I do now is if I get hot or I need to get up for a glass of water, I will say, oh, I'm just having a little bit of a moment or I'm feeling quite hot, just getting a glass of water. So now I do talk about it, but it's a completely different position because I am not suffering to the same effect that I used to suffer like five years ago, for example. So, yeah, quite sad, really, because I never talked about it. 

Lucie: Shall I jump in? So I took the opportunity after what I've described happened to me last year to then email all of the executive leadership team at work and tell them that had happened to me. So that was like my coming out. So I shared exactly the same story that I've shared with you today just on email to tell people this happened to me. It's okay, but I felt incredibly overwhelmed. And if I felt overwhelmed in that situation, I can guarantee that other people in the organization would be feeling overwhelmed if faced with the same thing. So we should talk about this. 

Yasmin: And what was the outcome of that email? 

Lucie: It was quite interesting, because some people, some men with wives who'd been through it actually reached out personally and said, you know, good on you, or well done for raising that, or I can understand or try and understand because my wife has been through or is going through something similar. And then from a kind of more policy perspective, we have looked at introducing policies where they didn't exist because we're an international business and just reviewing policies that do exist. I think there's still a lot more that we can do. Policy is one thing, but, you know, that takes somebody to read it and believe in it and hold true to it. So I think we're still quite early in the journey of pushing that forward. But yeah, I outed myself after the event. 

Yasmin: I think it's so funny that you used the phrase, you outed yourself. So that was, I was very curious about that. And Silvia, I'm sorry that you never got the chance to have that sense of relief or like, you know, camaraderie in a time that you probably needed it the most, right? And just that pressure is, I can't imagine. 

Silvia: Yeah, but this also was like 10, you know, like nine, eight, nine years ago. So, you know, I think times have changed and actually coming together with the women and having the guide. And, you know, I am now, I have spoken to our DEI committee and, you know, I will become the ambassador, for my firm. There are some practical guides and tips that we put in, sorry, practical tips that we put in the guide, which we will implement and I will make sure that we do implement them. So it's not for nothing. You know, it leads to positive change. And I think, you know, when we look at DEI initiatives, it depends a little bit on how large your firm is. But I think Lucie and I both work in fairly small organisations compared to maybe the big magic circle firms where you have big HR teams and DEI teams. You know, the focus has been very much on women and female equity and to give LGBTQ plus community a voice. And I think now we are sort of moving towards social mobility. Disability, neurodiversity. But menopause is like a poor relationship right? It still needs to come through the echelons hopefully with what we're doing. We just sort of create a little bit of awareness around that and I'm forever hopeful and I think there's positive times to come. 

Yasmin: I love that optimism should lead the way always um so that brings me into our next topic piece which is of course the guide that you guys have put together can you give us an overview of the outcome of the menopause matters guide and how it's been used. Silvia, do you want to kick us off and then we'll go to you, Lucie? 

Silvia: Yes, of course. So as I said, our focus was around the workplace and we sort of looked, we did a bit, we did research and we also thought it would be better to focus not on the medical side of it, but more the practical side of it because none of us are nurses or doctors. So it's not it's not our sweet spot. But we did a bit of research and we want it to be practical. We also want to incorporate our personal stories because stories are always powerful. And I think people always remember stories, you know, so you can sort of teach the theory. But it's the stories that are very powerful. And so we worked through a couple of themes where we just really sort of said, you know, listen, Menopause is happening. You know, half of the people on this world, on this earth, are women, and they're all going to go through it. So we need to deal with this. We need to find a way of dealing with this. You know, we highlighted symptoms. We highlight the fact that it affects everyone personally and everyone in a unique way. We also highlighted that employers will lose very important people in the sense that they are all very experienced because we get this at a time when we already have 20, 25, 30 years of experience under our belt. And if these women feel like they can, they're no longer supported, then they leave. That's a lot of experience that walks out of the door. You know, we also put some really useful statistics together. And then, as I said, the practical tips and we put that all together. We then thought about the best way of sharing that is through our social media networks because each person around that table had quite a good network and we just felt that that would be the way to distribute it. I then also have some media contacts and I approached them and two influential men in that sphere, which are Ben Rigby, reporter, and the editor of Legal Futures, Neil Rose. They really were very willing to put their weight behind it and then they featured it in their publications. And then that sort of had a snowball effect. You know, obviously Charlie from Passle reached out to me and said, you know, it'd be great if you could come to us and talk about this. We also have a LinkedIn influencer who will give us their support and we will do something around 18th of October when it's World Menopause Day, so watch that space. And so we had a really great reaction and I think Lucie, you had some reactions as well didn't you?

Lucie: Yeah, I did. And just to echo, I think the response was great, actually. It was much more than we perhaps had even hoped. We just wanted to get the guide out there as a tangible kind of next step and a showcase of our collaboration and brainstorming, I suppose. So yeah, I think a few things that are interesting to share. So the City of London Law Society is quite interested in supporting this. And I think what's particularly useful about that is they want to bring men into the conversation so this isn't all just kind of about women talking about women's issues. You know every man will have a sister, wife, aunt, daughter, whatever it might be that goes through this and I think having a man's perspective and a man's viewpoint on kind of the interviewing process for a panel as an example is a really good thing the CLLS are going to support. Also Law Care, who are traditionally supporting mental health in the legal space, realize this is a big topic for women and they're going to support us with a webinar later this year. And then we've had responses from other legal communities such as Crafty Counsel who want to post our guide on their community hubs as well. So I think there's lots to come and lots of opportunity, as Silvia said, to get involved with DEI initiatives as well as organizations and employee resource groups. There's a whole lot to come and I think the early days show that people are really interested in helping us continue the conversation.

Yasmin: My next question was going to be about the reaction since the launch, but obviously you are getting a lot of really good traction, which is great externally. I think internally, and I'd love to hear more, Lucie, you can kick us off and then Silvia, we'll go to you next. How has it been like at your firms?

Lucie: So touching on that a little bit before our round, I think we've still got a long way to go. I think that the response has been great. People are supportive. The ELT, as I mentioned, have been supportive, but we now need to put that support into some kind of action. You know, support is one thing, but what does it actually mean for change? We at my organization have a lot of women. We have a much more heavily weighted female workforce than we do male. So again, this is a big issue. This is a big issue for us as an organization too. So I think I just probably underscore that, yes, the reaction has been positive, but now, how can we start to take this forward and actually use it to be a force for change?

Silvia: I sort of touched upon it already a little bit, Yasmin, in answer to your previous questions. You know, my firm, Housevelt, has a good track record on taking DEI initiatives, but they've been mostly focused around women and LGBTQ+, etc. But I had a conversation with our DEI partner and I said, listen, can I just be your ambassador ally for the firm so I can bring these initiatives and bring them into practice? And you know, she was like, oh, we're all for it. So, and the good thing is I don't have to be part of a committee. So I said this, I'm very busy. I'm obviously committed and I'm very passionate about it, but I don't want to become part of a committee that's gonna drag me down. I want to just do this, I'll keep you informed of the initiatives and all of that and she was like, yeah great go for it. And I think,  maybe with that in mind, I'd like to highlight the Black Cardigan Initiative, which is actually something Lucie saw on her LinkedIn post. And it's genius in its simplicity, in the sense that what we do is we just encourage every firm, every workplace to have a black cardigan, a long black cardigan, so that if someone who was in exactly the same position that Lucie was at that board meeting could have gone and just could have taken that black cardigan, wear it for the length and the duration that it needed, taking it with them, washed it, and returned it to the firm. But it would have made a horrifying experience, maybe a little bit less horrifying. And so that's one of the initiatives that we will be introducing in my firm very, very quickly.

Yasmin: I love that. I didn't even think about that. You always think, oh, does somebody have a jacket or something I can wrap around my waist? That's brilliant. 

Lucie: Credit to Julie Cridland for that one. It was on her LinkedIn and we spotted it, but I think it's so simple, but so effective. It's great.

Yasmin: Shout out to Julie. Thank you very much. Great idea. Silvia, I'm so curious and you can say yes or no, but have you had to put your ambassador hat on yet for anybody? Has anybody come to you in need of help?

Silvia: No, not yet. So I still need to launch it within the firm. And I'm going to wait till after the summer holiday because I think to launch anything like this during summer when lots of people are on a break is just not really the best time. But I don't think, I mean, we have a big female workforce, but I think they are still of the younger generation. But I think we do get into the brackets of the 35 to 45-year-old, you know, sort of the perimenopausal brackets. And I think I'd like to really start the conversation around that so that people really understand that this is taking place. Because like I didn't, and Yasmin, you said at the beginning of the conversation that you'd never heard about perimenopause. So I think there's an important conversation to have to create awareness around that. So I think it's probably quite an important aspect of our campaign that makes it relevant to the workforce of today. Because I think people might look at their workforce and say, well, there's not that many menopausal women, because we only have, you know, we only have a percentage of like, I don't know, 3%, 4%, 5% of women that are above 50 and older. But if we would broaden it to 35 and older, then all of a sudden, the percentage of the female workforce within the professional services will vastly increase because we know that when we look at the percentage of lawyers, you know, about 45% of lawyers at associate level are women. And so there's a big group there.

Yasmin: And you touched on something there a little bit about, you know, where the whole campaign, where the movement is going, what the next steps look like. So I think, Lucie, this one is more for you. What is next? What are your goals with Menopause Matters?

Lucie: So we've said it a couple of times, and I think fundamentally, we want to keep the conversation going. So we want to remove the taboo. We want to remove the awkwardness, and we want to encourage conversation. We want more of what Silvia is doing. So we want more people taking this to their DEI teams or their HR teams, sharing the guide, sharing the practical tips, having the opportunity to really broaden that conversation to ultimately support women in the workplace. We want women to be able to thrive in the workplace. We want to be a part of that change and a part of that education and communication. So I think that's kind of priority number one. When you look beyond that, there's a whole big world out there and we've been focused very much on the UK in this given the women that we've brought together, but I think it's really interesting to see different experiences around the world. I mean, it's still a taboo here, but you go to some countries it wouldn't even be spoken about. I mean nobody would even really know what the menopause was, even though 50% of the population go through it. And I think there's a real opportunity particularly in the legal space, given how far we reach in our own kind of universes to really expand that conversation as well. So that's something that we're starting to look at how we might push out to.

Yasmin: And I think to wrap up our podcast, how can people get involved? I mean, for people like me, in my late 20s, how can I get involved?

Lucie: You can take the guide again to your HR team or to your DEI committees and you can say look at this, how can we incorporate it. You can start the conversation and Silvia and I and the rest of the group of women that we have brought together would all be very keen to come and help you steer that conversation at your workplace. We just want the opportunity to keep talking about it as I said so any chance of being able to do that any help that people might need we're more than willing as you've heard to share our own stories. We'll keep doing that. We'll keep trying to remove the taboo. And so creating space for that is incredibly helpful.

Silvia: Yeah, I echo that. You know, people can go on our LinkedIn profiles. They can directly message us. It's important to say we do this in a personal capacity, right? So obviously I work for Hausfeld. Lucie works for BARBRI. But we've done this. We've put this together in our personal capacity during the weekend, in the evening, et cetera. And you know we have said around the women around the table, you know if we can get on a panel on a DEI committee or DEI initiative and where they need people who are willing to talk about their personal stories would we willing to do it yes of course. You know we can jump on a webinar, we can do these things very, very easily and we will share. And I wouldn't say burden, because I don't think we see it as a burden, but we will share that among us. And just really to get to, as Lucie said, to keep that conversation going, because we achieved momentum, but the trick is not to achieve the momentum, it's to keep the momentum going, really. And hopefully with the support of people like you and all the organizations we mentioned already, then that can be achieved. 

Yasmin: Thank you. And we'll definitely include the guide on the post that we're going to do with this podcast. So people will be able to get it as soon as they listen to the podcast. But my hope is that this podcast episode opens up the floodgates and people come flooding in and they're calling you guys up. You can't even get rid of your phones because people are ringing you so much.

Silvia: Wow. That would be amazing, Lucie, wouldn't it? 

Lucie: That would be amazing. Thank you, Yasmin. 

Yasmin: Of course, no, thank you guys, and I think that's really us for today unless Silvia, Lucie, is there anything else you guys want to add to the end of this before we wrap up?

Lucie: No, just thank you for the opportunity. It was great to talk with you.

Silvia: Likewise. 

Yasmin: Well, thank you guys and thank you to all of our listeners who've tuned in. We're going to be listening to this podcast. I hope you know that menopause does matter and everybody's going to be paying attention to what's coming in this space. So thank you both so much for your time and tune in next time for another episode of Passle REPRESENTS.