In today's fast-moving digital world, having a well-organized Martech stack helps marketers streamline their work, use data to create personalized campaigns, and achieve efficient, measurable results across various channels.
In this episode of the CMO Series, Yasmin Zand talks with Jaclyn Braga, Director of Marketing and Business Development at Morse, and Jenny Hills, Marketing Operations Manager at Axinn, about the importance of Martech for law firms. They discuss key tools and the challenges and opportunities that adopting these technologies opens up.
Jaclyn, Jenny and Yasmin Cover:
- Martech stacks and the tools their teams find most useful
- The roadblocks faced in adopting new tech, and how to overcome them
- How has Martech evolved in the legal industry, and which tools had the biggest impact in smaller mid-size firms
- AI’s role in Martech, and its influence on team strategy
- How to advocate for Martech upgrades and get buy-in from leadership
- How to measure success when it comes to Martech strategy
- Advice for others looking to optimize their efforts using Martech
Transcription:
Yasmin: Welcome to today's episode of the CMO Series Podcast, where we'll dive into the world of marketing technology with two fantastic industry experts who are shaping the future of legal marketing. Today, I'm joined by Jaclyn Braga, Director of Marketing and Business Development at Morse, and Jenny Hills, Marketing Operations Manager at Axinn. Jaclyn and Jenny bring over two decades of experience each, navigating the fast-evolving martech landscape in the legal industry. From optimizing workflows to leveraging AI, they've really seen it all. In this episode, we'll explore how they've assembled their Martech stacks to meet the unique demands of small and mid-sized firms, the challenges they've overcome along the way, and what they're planning next to stay competitive.
Charlie: The CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle. Passle makes thought leadership simple, scalable, and effective, so professional services firms can stay front of mind with their clients and prospects when it matters most. Find out more and request a demo at passle.net. Now back to the podcast.
Yasmin: So welcome, Jacki and Jenny.
Jenny: Thank you for having us.
Jacki: Thank you for having us.
Yasmin: Of course. Thank you guys for joining. And for those of you who are listening to the podcast recording, Jenny is very bravely joining us the day after their holiday party at Axinn, so thank you for joining us in person from the office. It's fantastic to have you.
Jenny: Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Yasmin: Awesome. So, as per usual, we've got a few questions here, of course, that we've worked through, but this is largely a conversation. So Jenny and Jacki, you guys can add whatever context you'd like throughout this conversation, but I know we've got a lot of people eagerly waiting to hear your answers, especially after your amazing session at LMA Northeast when you guys presented on tapping into your Martech stack. So, without further ado, I'm going to get started and dive into a few questions. So Jacki, and then we'll go to Jenny for your responses to this question. You're both key members of relatively small teams. I think we've talked about that pretty comprehensively. Can you give a quick overview of your Martech stacks and the tools your teams rely on most? So Jacki, we'll start with you.
Jacki: Yes, absolutely. So, a quick background is my team is myself and two other people and occasionally an intern. So, to give you an idea of our team size. So, we have our CRM is the SurePoint Product ContactEase, which includes an ERM module. We also use their time and billing system, which is LMS. We use Constant Contact for mailing and events. On the design side, we primarily use Adobe Creative Cloud, but we also use some Canva. I think pretty much everyone does these days. Our website is hosted on WordPress. We also use Google Analytics, of course. And then I think, you know, some people may have heard me talk before about our incentive program. We use an application called Live School for that. And then a few other random pieces like SurveyMonkey and other stuff like that.
Yasmin: Jenny, what about you?
Jenny: Yeah, so I'll preface this list with we have launched all these items in about a 12-month time span. So it's going to sound like a lot, and I'll be able to talk more about that throughout the podcast. But just as an overview, we have a new website that we're navigating and still learning a bit, through RubyLaw. We have a CRM system through Nexl. We have a blog through Passle. We also have the RubyLaw experience product. We have content syndicators, Lexology, Mondaq, and JD Supra. We have LinkedIn Sales Navigator and Canva and a few other little tools that we use for whatever we may need.
Yasmin: Brilliant. So I can imagine in a 12-month period, implementing things is no small feat. So, in light of that, what are the unique challenges or roadblocks you face in adopting new technology and how did you overcome them? Jenny, why don't you go and then Jacki will go next.
Jenny: Sure. I will be honest. The internal approval process was fairly smooth because there was an appetite to really grow the department and what we could offer our attorneys. With that said, we are a small team. I manage a team of three, and I really only have two people focused on all these platforms. And then we also had a digital communications manager who was really integral in launching quite a few of these, who's kind of my partner in all of this. But because we're a small team, we had to learn these platforms. We had to learn what they can do and what they can easily do with the short term. So we overcame a lot of these challenges by being really transparent with our partners. They knew that these were all coming on board. So as soon as we had a tool that could be attorney-facing, we made it attorney-facing. And we brought them along for the ride. And we were very transparent, like I said, that this is not perfect yet. We're still learning how to perfect it. But one of those tools that we brought on really early was Passle. And they liked it because they were able to write their own content, get it out in the world without a lot of red tape. And that was a game changer in the early days. And I will say that with a small team to implement all these tools at once, there are times when we were all about the website and everything else would fall behind, or one minute we'd be all about CRM and then everything else would kind of fall behind. So it was like a little mountain of progress and we're kind of getting to the place where we're at a place where we can look at everything instead of just focusing on one thing at a time.
Yasmin: Thank you. I'm a little curious about something you said there, Jenny. Before I let you go, Jacki. You said there was an appetite. How did you, how did you whet that appetite? Like, how did you get people hungry for all of these systems?
Jenny: Well, we were in the middle of a rebrand. And that was a big undertaking. And it was timely. And everyone, you know, wanted a nice new look for the firm that really mirrors who the firm is and puts us in a good place in the marketplace to do that. So the appetite kind of led from there. Because we said, well, okay, we're going to do a new brand, but we need all the tools to support the new brand, which we didn't really have. So they kind of came hand in hand. Awesome. Thank you.
Yasmin: So Jacki, going to you, so what were some of the challenges and roadblocks you faced when you were adopting the new tech you guys have?
Jacki: No surprise. A few of the similar common challenges that Jenny mentioned, obviously getting decision makers on board, training on the new technology, limited staff and budget. And I think even when we were chatting before, I had mentioned that up until recently, we didn't have admin or secretaries at the firm. So we only have a couple even now with 40 attorneys. I think we have three.So, you know, it comes to things like CRM, we don't have admin entering contacts for us. So that fell on my team as well. Maybe one more unique challenge that we had was we have outsourced IT. We haven't always had outsourced IT, but in more recent years we do. And they don't have the historical knowledge. So I know other firms probably have a similar challenge. They don't have the historical knowledge about the firm, about our departments, and they don't know our applications as well as we probably do, or they don't really get the chance to get to know our team and our needs.So one benefit is that a lot of our products have moved to the cloud, such as our CRM, of course. And that took a lot of the support off of Morse's outside, you know, outsourced IT and put it back on the product itself, which certainly made my life easier, you know, working with someone who knows the product really well.
Yasmin: That's really interesting. So Jacki, when you mentioned especially outsourcing IT, it kind of goes hand in hand with our next question, which is about the evolution of Martech in the legal industry. So, how has the evolution of Martech impacted your careers and which of your tools or even, you know, your teams that you depend on impacted your teams the most, particularly as you guys are a smaller, mid-sized firm? So, Jacki, we'll start with you.
Jacki: Sure. When I look back to 2008, I honestly picture myself passing out paper contact lists to select holiday cards, things like that. And it makes me laugh, really. It does. And I think paper in general, we used to print collateral, pitch materials, brochures. Now if I use our in-house Biz Hub printer two to three times a year, that's a surprise for me. And I also look back at social media. When I joined the firm, it really was LinkedIn only. So I think the number of outlets we had has certainly changed. The way we handle things, the fact that we moved from print to digital has certainly changed. Certainly our website. I don't think I would like, I wouldn't want you to see our 2008 website looking back now. But I would say that if I'm choosing one specific tool, I lean heavily on our CRM. And of course, the integrations that have come along throughout the years, the fact that it talks to constant contact certainly helps me. Integration of other applications, they certainly saved me time. And that has changed over the years. And it's certainly been a game changer when it comes to tracking things. You know, when I first got to the firm, it was mostly just being able to get the work done was enough. But really now it's a focus on the tracking of marketing and BD initiatives from events to BD touches and, you know, really looking at things in the strategic side. So a lot of change since 08 for sure.
Yasmin: Yeah. Jenny, what about you?
Jenny: Well, it's a different world than it was when I started doing this. You know, the Martech was basically our website and a lot of Excel spreadsheets with contacts in them. I don't even know if you could call that Martech, but we've been able to evolve quite rapidly, even in the past, you know, 18 months or so. So to see how we can provide much more sophisticated offerings to our attorneys has been a game changer. And we can trust our platform that they're giving us real information that is really going to be able to feed business development. That's been a real game changer for us. Right now, because I'm deep into it, our CRM is kind of really like the tool that I'm leaning on most because I'm learning how to use it for our firm, how it makes sense for our firm. But I'm also learning what it really We can do, like Jacki said, with, you know, plugins and talking to other tools and just learning the breadth of it. And I'm excited about that.
Yasmin: Yeah. So, Jenny, you mentioned offering, you know, your attorneys some interesting tools. And since we kind of looked at the past and how Martech has evolved since 08, since the origins of Martech in the legal industry, now we can kind of look ahead. And I know this is a little bit of a buzzword, but are you guys using AI and has it changed your team strategies at all? So I think, Jenny, we'll start with you and then we'll go to Jacki.
Jenny: You know, we aren't using it in any sense where it's part of like any specific process, but it is improving process, if that makes sense. I direct my team to use it. You know, if you have to draft an email that has five different points that you need people to pay attention to, put the five points in there and see what it gives you back. I like to say it takes away the chaos of nothing. You know, it streamlines things and that we don't have to do that initial, you know, scraping off the cobwebs to figure out what we want to say. And that's allowed me and my team to have more time to do more impactful things.
Yasmin: Yeah, that's amazing. Jacki, what about you?
Jacki: Our use of AI at this time is still pretty minimal, similar to Jenny. My team uses it for content development, same concept, really content prompting, particularly when we need to write something, you know, that we write something that we have several versions of, several corporate attorney bios, social posts, you know, a lot of the same stuff that she mentioned. I don't think I said it before, but we do also use Sprout Social and that platform uses an AI option to offer social post recommendations. So we kind of dabble in it there as well, but no formal commitment to AI at this point.
Yasmin: Interesting. So when you guys are thinking about also, you know, making the case for getting new technology. So when you guys were saying, you know, Jenny, you guys kind of had this like 12-month turnaround time of like revamping your whole Martech stack. And Jacki, you guys have an amazing, like comprehensive suite of tools. How do you make the case for getting, you know, upgrades right or like getting buy-in from leadership when it comes to actually getting what's, you know, brand spanking new or kind of what is the highest cutting-edge piece of technology? So Jacki why don't we start with you and then we'll go to Jenny.
Jacki: Absolutely. You know, we adhere to the common technique of finding the cheerleaders first, right? You know, the folks that are easily on board with new technology are perhaps their practice is more cutting edge, so they are, you know, easily adaptable to new technology. And then I usually hit up the naysayers next, frankly. If I can get them on board, I'm in a good spot. And I think we mentioned it before, from there, really highlighting those early wins, no matter how small they are. Similar to Jenny, I feel lucky that we have partnership and particularly a managing partner who's very BD-focused. And I have to say, honestly, the firm itself has been very marketing-focused even before I joined. So, you know, I'm grateful for that. They're pretty open to new things. But, you know, you really have to start with the folks that will try the product, take the time to learn it, and let you know the feedback so that, you know, you can have those early wins to share. And, you know, you have to kind of cover those pain points, right? What are the things that the attorneys are challenged by and how can you answer those pain points? And I find a lot of times when I'm pitching an upgrade or a new product, for me, the obvious benefit is either, you know, a time saved for my team. And unfortunately, attorneys aren't always excited by just, you know, saving some time for the marketing team, but really showing them if we save this time, here's what else we can do for you Or here's what better services that we can provide you with these upgrades or these new pieces of technology. So it gets kind of those steps. It's the cheerleaders, the naysayers, and then those early wins for me at least.
Yasmin: Yeah, that's fantastic. Before we move on to Jenny, Jacki, I wanted to point out something that you'd mentioned about cheerleaders, especially, and then the naysayers, because that's interesting. I've never actually heard folks say that, oh, you know, I'm going to go to the people who typically say no next. It's kind of a double question. So do your, there's a lot of fatigue, I think, from being a champion in general. Do you ever find that those people who are advocating for your team through and say like, oh, we're like, you know, I can't do this right now, right? And like, how does that impact how you're advocating for your team?
Jacki: Yeah, I mean, not all the cheerleaders are available at all times, right? And you don't necessarily have a ton of them. I try to be choosy or selective about who I tap for any particular project. I look back at that pain point concept, right? Is it someone who I know has a lot of great contacts, but they just don't have the time to manage those contacts? So should I tap them when I'm talking about CRM. So I try not to lean on anybody too many times in a budget cycle, I guess we could say, so that I'm not dragging down their time too much and not pulling anyone's attention away from their work too often.
Yasmin: So Jenny, what about you? How are you making the case for upgrades and new systems?
Jenny: Well, we've made that case recently for quite a few things, but now we're really trying to implement and roll out these tools. So that's kind of what I consider to be our current, you know, upgrade, if you will. And in finding the group to do that with, it is, like Jacki said, finding those who have the need. And sometimes they don't always realize that they have the need. So you kind of have to look at what their pain points might be or what they're asking for or what you kind of know you struggle to deliver for them to identify who those folks might be. One tip that I found incredibly helpful and it's not always the easiest thing, but find the person who is going to tell you what your challenges will be. And if you're fortunate enough to have an attorney who will take the time to say, you know, this is going to be a challenge for you, fix this before it's facing more people. That has been incredibly helpful to have that partnership because we're able to adjust before we roll out to a larger crowd.
Yasmin: So, Jenny, you mentioned you guys already have all the bells and whistles now, at least hopefully after 12 months of over-dressed. But if you had to say there was anything on your wish list or any tools that you could add, what would it be?
Jenny: Well, it's kind of a two-pronged response for me, because at this point, as you know, I'm kind of overseeing the next phase of all these projects, and I probably could use some advice in doing that. So I think investment in someone who's already done it or could give best points on how to do it effectively would be on my wish list. But also, we do have our experience platform that while we've already have it and have access to it, we really haven't had the time to roll it out or invest the time in it that I'd like. So being able to set aside those resources is definitely on my wish list.
Yasmin: Yeah. Jacki, what about you?
Jacki: Well, since we moved our CRM to the cloud a year or so ago, I've been slowly rolling out the newer modules that are included, such as the relationship management module. And then in early 2025, I'll be adding the time and billing integration, which I think will give my team a more holistic look at our clients. And I think, you know, in the horizon, I think with them, I think this will also allow us to really see where we should and should not be focusing our attorney's time. I think that's a big one for us. We don't currently have a content syndicator tool. So I'm interested in looking into that, perhaps a picture experience tool similar to what Jenny was saying. And, you know, maybe trying to get to, you know, further integrate AI the best that we can. It's certainly a time saver in some ways. So, you know, kind of just looking at what's coming up on the horizon and taking it from there.
Yasmin: Yeah. A lot of the times I feel like you can build so much, so much, like so much system, so many processes, and then, you know, bringing us to our next question, where do you celebrate the success, right? So for you guys and Jenny, I think we'll start with you. And then Jacki, if there's anything you want to add, feel free to, but for you guys at Axe and Jenny, what does success look like, especially in your Martech strategy? And are there any specific metrics that you guys have found particularly helpful in measuring success?
Jenny: Yeah. And it's more been like a broad success than anything specific. Although recently we have discovered that we've been successful in our email sends because we recently launched a new brand. And the result is that we sent to a very targeted list and we had a very impressive open rate. So that was wonderful to be able to share with our attorneys. But in early days of this journey, the real metric of our success was increased brand awareness because that's why we refreshed our brand. That's why we invested in all these tools is to increase our brand awareness in the marketplace. And all these tools have really allowed us to do that. Another metric of success are successes that you can socialize internally. So for example, one of our partners would need to pitch opportunity from one of his blog posts and be able to share that, you know, practice group meetings and things that really propelled other attorneys to get involved with that platform as well.
Yasmin: Yeah, that's amazing. I feel like brand awareness is so hard to measure too, because how many, how can you count, you know, how many eyes have seen the beautiful new website? I know I've checked on it a couple of times.
Jenny: Right. Yeah. It's tricky, but we're able to kind of get a little toolbox of metrics that we're able to share.
Yasmin: Yeah, that's fantastic. All right. So we're nearing the end of the podcast. We have our final question before I have to let our fabulous guests go. I always love asking people these questions just about, in general, your advice on your experiences. So we'll start with you, Jenny, and then Jacki, we'll have you finish us off. If you had to share one piece of advice for other folks who are looking to optimize their efforts using Martech, what would it be? And I guess I'll add a second one to it. If there was anything that you would say like, oh, if only I'd known this when I was doing this then, what would it be?
Jenny: Well, this is going to sound contrary to everything I just said, but if you're going through something as fast-paced as what we embraced, just take baby steps in your change and the way you manage change. For example, for many years, I created and reviewed our email list manually. So like literally I would have 10 spreadsheets open and copy and paste to create that perfect list. And now I have the tools to do that with a few clicks. But I still take the time to vet those lists, not only because that's what our attorneys are accustomed to, and it would just be too shocking to have just sending contacts that aren't a perfect match for any given list, but it allows me to create lists, and I use this only as an example, that are good and that we can go back to. So we're erasing having to replicate things or duplicative work by putting in that initial time on kind of like any given project that's falling under this umbrella.
Yasmin: Yeah. Jacki, what about you?
Jacki: I would say if you're a part of a small team or even a solo marketer, really consider what applications will provide the biggest bang for your buck. And I don't just mean money. I mean time as well. Both are limited for our teams. Consider whether there are products that can solve several issues for you at once. Make that wish list that we talked about. Address the biggest pain points first if you can. For me, it was definitely some paper lists similar to what Jenny said. And then also make good choices with your vendors. I think often we are tempted to go with a vendor just because someone else is using them and really likes them. Think about what works for your firm and with your team. You want to have a good connection with your vendors, that you're basically going to be best friends throughout a project. So I think choosing your vendors wisely is really important as well.
Yasmin: Awesome. Well, Jacki, Jenny, thank you guys so much for joining the CMO Series podcast episode today. I can't thank you enough for taking the time out of your very busy schedules. I know we're getting close to end of year, so there's definitely no time to waste. So I appreciate you joining and to our listeners thank you for tuning in. I think this episode is fantastic so very excited to get it into the hands of the many and I hope everybody has a fantastic new year. Thank you guys, thank you.