There’s no clear path to a successful career in legal marketing, but there are emerging trends and development opportunities that professionals can lean into to progress in a legal marketing career.

Someone able to offer guidance for others looking to take a more direct route to a role within the profession is Andrea Burke, Director of Client Development at Am Law 50 global law firm, WilmerHale. 

Ed Lovatt welcomes Andrea to the CMO Series to discuss her career journey and top tips for professionals looking to advance in the industry. 

Andrea and Ed explore: 

• Andrea’s 10-year career at WilmerHale and her journey to her role now
• The key approaches to developing a legal marketing team
• The important considerations in terms of professional development opportunities when it comes to recruiting and retaining team members
• How legal marketing professionals can recognize the right time to make a move
• The key criteria legal marketing candidates should be looking for when assessing a firm
• The questions candidates should be asking a prospective firm that would indicate if they are the right or wrong fit
• How candidates can make themselves more marketable to law firms
• Advice for those Legal Marketing professionals looking at their career paths

Transcription:

Ed: Welcome to the Passle CMO Series podcast. Something that we've very briefly touched upon in previous episodes is career progression. And it's been mentioned by a couple of other guests that I've had on, but also my colleagues. So today, we're going to delve deeper into this topic. And I'm very lucky to welcome Andrea Burke, Director of Client Development at WilmerHale. Welcome, Andrea.

Andrea: Delighted to be here. 

Ed: Now, you and I have had a couple of conversations and a few back and forths, so I have a fairly good idea already about this answer, but for the sake of our listeners, you've been at WilmerHale for over 10 years now. Would you mind letting them and me again know how you got to where you are now?

Andrea: Yes, absolutely. You know, this is something that I've been reflecting on in prepping for this conversation today. And so it's fun to sort of take a look back at you know, our humble beginnings and how we got to where we are today. I think like a good number of legal marketers. I did not start my career in a law firm job. That was not anything that was on my radar coming out of college where I studied corporate communications and minored in advertising and public relations. It was a really common career path with, you know, that field of study and common first job, I will say to work in an advertising agency. I was fortunate the summer after my junior year, I was able to work in an in a small agency, business development department, and had such a great experience that I was really laser focused on finding something like that full time.

When I graduated college, I ended up at a really large well-known agency kind of the equivalent of a top firm to give you a sense of scale. And it wasn't typical to start out in a business development position at an agency. It was more common as an entry-level job to work on existing business developing advertising campaigns where my position in business development was focused on a large scale pitch for new business opportunities. It was an incredibly fun job, somewhat intense at times. And you know, the only drawback is as my time went on at the agency, was a bit of a limitation in terms of my career development because, you know, I hadn't started out working on existing client business, which was the more traditional path as I thought about, you know, the next step and what a career path might look for me. It led me to consider what other kinds of marketing and business development roles I could sort of transfer into, you know, what else existed in professional services marketing. And that's what ultimately brought me to legal now. Fast forward several years. And as you mentioned, Ed, I've now been at my current firm WilmerHale for, in fact, just over 12 years now, in this time, I've had a few different roles and, most notably, when I joined the firm, we actually had separate departments for marketing and business development. That's versus the single client development function that we have today.

My first position here was technically in the marketing department and I'll say that the distinction of separate marketing and business development roles was a bit of an adjustment for me both from my experience in advertising agencies. And also having spent just over five years at a smaller law firm where I did a little bit of everything. We were too small, a firm and too small, a team to carve out separate marketing and business development roles. So it was a bit of an adjustment just doing marketing at WilmerHale. But then a couple of years into my tenure, my business development counterpart who supported the same practices that I was working with in the marketing capacity left the firm. It just so happened that the business development position was at the director level and I at the time in marketing, was a manager. Now, I wish I could say that, you know, I just sort of moved into the new role seamlessly and automatically, but that's not quite how things played out. I can actually still remember vividly, the email I received asking if I knew anyone who might be a good fit for the business development director position, basically inviting me to be part of the recruiting effort, you know. So it was not immediately obvious to anyone in the firm that perhaps I was the candidate for this role. But fortunately, I had been doing really well, I'd created some really strong relationships enough so that I was able to talk to a few of the partners to assess whether, you know, I could be a candidate for this position. And so despite some trepidation, you know, again, it would have been preferable had I and sort of tapped by management to uh to pursue this, I threw my hat in the ring and sort of entered the formal recruiting process, they were already talking to some, some external candidates.

So I actually, you know, went through the full interview process, had some awkward conversations because I was interviewing with partners that I was, you know, already working closely with. But because of the fact that this was a leadership position, they weren't just going to sort of hand out the position to me as much as that would have would have been nice. So went through that interview process and ultimately did land the job and from there, having worked in marketing, you know, and now taken on the business development role that actually started to lay the groundwork for future leaders of the client development department, which sort of merged shortly thereafter. And is consistent with what I do at WilmerHale today, I guess I would say I should just sort of share this to make the point as we're talking about career advancement and career progression that, you know, often you do need to take matters into your own hands and much as we'd like for opportunities to sort of perfectly present themselves to us or be offered to us. Sometimes it requires a little bit of bravery and being proactive to pursue what interests you most definitely.

Ed: I'm glad you threw your hat in the ring for the position because we might not be here having this conversation otherwise.

Andrea: That's right.

Ed: You mentioned very briefly earlier, coming from maybe an agency role like an external to the law firm or the legal marketing role. Do you think that's an advantage for law firms and for legal marketing that they're able to pull people in from other sectors, there's maybe a skill set that crosses over.

Andrea: Yeah. Indeed. You know, I think it's a big advantage I think I have seen, especially in the last few years. A lot more openness and eagerness from the legal industry to recruit from other industries. And, you know, I think it comes back to the legal industry's interest in figuring out how law firms can distinguish themselves, how we can be more innovative as an industry, as all the more reason we need to be bringing in perspectives from outside of the industry. Backgrounds from, you know, advertising and marketing agencies or accounting or other areas of the economy, in order to not just continue doing what we've always done.

Ed: Yeah. And, that keyword, I think that you used was, “innovative”. It's something that's come up a few times in conversations I've had and it's not something that generally correlates with law firms. They don't have that reputation as being innovative, but it is changing. I can see it myself and I'm sure you can.

Andrea: Absolutely.

Ed: So, over your years at WilmerHale, what is it that you've identified as key to developing your team?

Andrea: Yeah. So, you know, I think in my view, the development of your team has to align with the needs of the firm. So, as a leader, you know, I see my responsibility as first really understanding the firm's overall strategy and you know, what goals we're trying to accomplish. And then with that as the backdrop, I can help determine what resources and expertise we need to support those goals. So probably sounds incredibly straightforward.

But you know, the reality is especially at top firms, as we think about, you know, staying competitive and staying innovative, what resources and expertise that we need today, you know, that shifts and evolves over time. So, you know, as a leader, it's really important to have your pulse on what the firm, how the firm is looking to grow, and always be thinking critically about your existing team, your existing talent, and how those individuals can grow along with the firm in areas where the firm needs it. And also acknowledge, you know, when there are significant enough gaps that might require you to bring in new people or bring in outside resources, you know, again, is thinking back to my tenure at WilmerHale when I first joined the firm, you know, we were fairly early adopters of webinars, which seems like a crazy thing to say. Given, you know what we're doing. Now, every firm, I think host webinars and virtual meetings of some sort. But when I first joined the firm, we were probably doing, you know, maybe 10 to 15 a year. Now we do that in a quarter with our eyes close. But at the time, you know, the technology was fairly basic, there wasn't a lot of deep webinar expertise amongst our team. So, you know, we were fortunate to have some individuals within our department who really took it upon themselves to learn how to execute webinars, they implemented processes so that we could produce these at the highest level at the time. And eventually, you know, this group helped us explore more sophisticated technology as you know, it became available and it became clear that, you know, we needed to continue to evolve. You know, thankfully, we had all of this in place as a pandemic ensued and the volume of webinars and the expectations that clients had for what that experience was like really really increased, you know, up until the point where we determined that we had a need to recruit outside talent um and really build out our marketing technology function.

So we recruited a new position, and we're building out that function within our communications team. But I share that as an example of what sort of started out as a development opportunity for a group within our department to sort of dabble in, but ultimately tipped the scales into something where we really needed to recruit deep expertise. I guess the second point on team development, you know, is I think about guidance, I could offer to legal marketers, you know, whether they're in leadership positions or even those who are earlier in their careers is to pay attention to what keeps the marketing and business development team busy. You know, look at how this might shift over time. What are the things that lawyers come to the department asking for on a regular basis? But also, you know, are there things that we feel we should be doing to advance the goals of the firm that maybe lawyers don't ask for? So really do an assessment of sort of demand and workload and busyness. It's always interesting to me that, that within the law firm uh environment, you know, lawyers keep meticulous uh track of what keeps them busy because they have to for billing purposes. But for non-legal professionals in law firms, we don't always have a mechanism in place to capture activity in team workload. But, you know, at my firm, we've put into place um different ways to keep track of, you know, nearly every project that we work on, you know, whether it's a pitch or a research project or an event or legal directory submission, you know, it's incredibly valuable to have all of this data at our fingertips so that we can assess. Do we have the right people in place? Do we have the right number of people in place to keep up with demand? Are there gaps in the expertise that we have today that we need to either develop the skills of the existing team or build out the team? So, you know, I think always um being observant of what keeps folks busy can be a really good way to figure out how to develop the team. And, you know, that's sort of with my management hat on. But I think the same could be said for someone thinking about career progression and how to have more of an impact and where to develop is really just to again, observe, you know, where there is demand where there is need, you know, some of the most successful members of our team are those individuals who um pay attention to where there is demand, where help is needed. And you know, those are the individuals who typically bring ideas to us or develop skills in a way that benefits the firm.

Ed:  I have a million-dollar question for you following on from that, which, no pressure, but how can legal marketing professionals recognise when it's the right time or a good time to make the move?

Andrea: Yeah, so I will acknowledge that as someone who has been at their firm for over 12 years, I probably seem like an odd expert to have perspective on this. But in fairness, I have made moves within my own firm. And I have also been involved in a tremendous amount of interviewing and recruiting and I also had the privilege of managing and mentoring an extraordinary number of legal marketers over the years. So I've certainly observed many strategic well-timed moves. I've also seen people move on at times that maybe weren't as obvious. So I do have a lot of thoughts on this topic and, you know, I think that that probably mostly legal marketers have thought about this, since as a profession, you know, we, for the most part, are quite fortunate that demand for legal marketing talent is generally pretty high and usually on the rise and there tend to be a lot of opportunities out there, you know, as someone who's had my recruiting hat on for the last few years, we need more legal marketing talent from my point of view. But because of all of that opportunity and thinking about when is the right time to make a move, I think you really need to have, you know, established career goals and be really intentional about what you're looking for and what decisions you make about your career because there can just be a lot of temptation to, you know, just respond to whatever falls in your lap too, you know, take the call from a persistent recruiter. But I personally think it's a lot more powerful to have decided for yourself what you want for your career and to pursue it as opposed to just sort of reacting to whatever comes your way.

I also always encourage folks to think about, you know, before considering making a move to leave your current firm. Are there things that you can do to improve your current circumstances? You know, are there development opportunities that you could take on in your current role that you haven't explored? One of my favorite uh interview questions, in fact, is to ask candidates what is something you'll regret not having accomplished if you do leave your current firm or company. And I would say if there were things that you have still yet to accomplish or even frustrations that you have in your current role. Honestly, often it's the frustrations that can be the tipping point that leads someone to consider making a move, ask yourself if you've really tried to address these things. It's from my point of view, it's a big decision to switch jobs and there can be risk involved not knowing what you're getting into. So, you know, to the extent that you can tap into some resilience, work through challenges, you know, develop new skills. I think those are sort of important considerations as opposed to just being inclined to make a jump. I can even think back to a recent interview where I was speaking with a candidate who had terrific credentials, but it struck me that she was maybe throwing in the towel at her current firm um without giving them a fair chance. And, you know, as someone who works so hard to retain our top talent at WilmerHale, I found myself really feeling empathy for the firm that, you know, unbeknownst to them, you know, this candidate was out interviewing and really had concerns that if we were to offer a position to this individual that, you know, maybe in a year or two, she might grow restless with us. So, you know, always consider if you've really done all you can in your current role, but also be open to realising, you know, there will be times when you have truly hit a ceiling in terms of learning or advancement or any time there are consistent continued issues that are holding you back. Just sort of have you frustrated, you know, that's when it may be time to make a move, but making sure that the move you're considering is getting you to that next step, I think is key.

Ed: When you say it out loud does make perfect sense. Is there a specific process or maybe there's actual questions that candidates should be asking a prospective firm so that it indicates to them whether it's a right or wrong fit?

Andrea:  Absolutely. So I might answer this question kind of in two parts or from two perspectives. First, I will say that you know, the questions that candidates pose to me and my colleagues when we're recruiting are scrutinized. So we pay a lot of attention to the questions that a candidate asks of us. I would discourage candidates from asking questions that feel too generic. Sometimes the impression that comes along when you ask sort of very boilerplate questions is that you know, you're not really focused on our role or firm, it can almost come across like you're just a professional interviewer, we also trade notes. So if you're meeting with multiple individuals in our firm, you know, we're going to have a conversation about what we learned from you, what questions you asked of us. So we don't like to see you know, the same exact questions asked of each one of us. So, you know, we definitely read into the questions you pose to us that can suggest what is a priority to you. So, you know, as we bring things back to career progression, you know, if a candidate is too focused on advancement opportunities and asks a lot of questions about, you know, what opportunities there are for promotions or professional development. And that seems to be sort of all they care about, you know, in an interview context that can come across as you know, not so well. And this is to say, you know, we want individuals who are ambitious and who want to grow their careers with us. 

But there's sort of an outside focus from a candidate on what comes next. It can give us a little bit of pause in feeling like this is someone who's really focused on the position, the needs that we have today, and, you know, sometimes makes us worry that you know, this is someone who could be restless and sort of overly focused on getting a promotion too soon, for instance. On sort of a second point which I think you're asking, you know, are there questions that candidates should be asking in the interview process? You know, I think, depending on how much you've learned in the process about a particular position and in a firm, you know, whatever questions you can ask that really help you understand what the priorities are for the position and for the firm are questions worth asking. You know, I think you want to make sure you really understand what's most important in the role, you know, what are the pressing priorities? And then make sure that what you hear and what you learn about those priorities match what you're looking for. I think it can also be productive to ask employers about someone who's been successful in the position. You know, what about them made them successful in the role that will tell you a lot about what firm values in terms of performance and here too, should help you understand if you'd be a fit for the firm and for the role and then, you know, maybe as a final one, I think another great question that candidates can ask is, what's the hardest part of the job? You know, this is somewhere that you really want to be listening carefully and digesting what you learn because if the hardest part of the job describes something that um you really dislike or, or maybe something that you're trying to get away from and from your current firm, you definitely want to listen to those instincts.

Ed: I'm sure there are also some questions that should not be asked, but it's probably better, we focus on the does rather than the don'ts. How is it possible that candidates could maybe make themselves more marketable?

Andrea: You know, I think from my perspective, successful candidates make it easy for us to see how their experience translates to our position and what we're looking for. You know, I think that candidates who customize their resume so that the right experience is highlighted and jumps off the page and ideally uh candidates who include a cover letter so they can speak directly to their transferable skills. Have a real leg up. You know, the majority of legal marketing roles require exceptional writing and communication skills. So it's super important that this comes through, not only in the written materials that are submitted but in how candidates present themselves. So definitely prioritising communication and writing. And I also, you know, I would never underestimate the importance of follow up emails and correspondence, making sure that those are you know, to a really high standard of communication. And again, acknowledging that on the hiring side, you know, we share all of that information. So avoid the temptation to send the same email to multiple people at one firm in terms of marketability, you know, to some extent, I would argue that those who are already in legal marketing roles, who are able to demonstrate, you know, relevant experience who present themselves. Well, that alone, you know, makes them highly marketable for these roles, but for someone as we were talking about who, you know, might be coming from outside of the industry or someone within legal who's sort of looking to pivot into a new area. And, you know, these individuals may have to work a little bit harder to connect the dots, making sure, you know, that you do include a cover letter to really sell it from them on why you'd be fit and spelling out how your experience could translate is going to make you more marketable.

Ed: All incredibly useful information, Andrea. I know we've discussed back and forth a number of different topics that we could have discussed today. And I'm sure that there's maybe a follow-up episode to this. I had one final question that we tend to ask at the end of one of the podcasts and it's maybe a trickier one as this is such an all-encompassing topic. But what would be your one piece of advice for those legal marketing professionals looking at their career paths now?

Andrea: So if I had to choose one thing, you know, I think it would be to take the time to establish for yourself specific goals. And make sure you're revisiting your progress against those goals on a consistent basis. You know, it's not unlike advice that we often give to lawyers when it comes to, you know, sort of having a plan and having a business development plan in order to keep them on track. I find that far too often, you know, career development and personal development, it can fall by the wayside. We have very busy jobs and very busy lives and we can get in the trap of kind of passively moving about our careers as opposed to, you know, really driving things forward proactively. So if I had to choose one thing, it would just be to sort of have a plan, and carve out the time to think about your career. I personally think a terrific source of inspiration if you're looking for ideas on sort of how you can develop, you know, what opportunities are out there, certainly in legal marketing is to, you know, check out the Passle CMO series is I have taken away so many wonderful insights from some of the best of the best in our industry. Listening to others talk about, you know, their paths to development and what they're developing on their team and what they see as areas for growth in the future. So, you know, I would definitely check out uh the archives of the podcast.

Ed: I think that's a wonderful suggestion, but then I'm slightly biased. So I wanted to dive into the quick fire around here. And so we've got five quick questions for you. First off, what's your favorite business and non-business book?

Andrea: Yeah. So I will confess, I don't read a ton of business books. Like many legal marketers, we are constantly reading legal industry news and client news. So I kind of get my fill on all things business that way. But an old favorite of mine on the business front is a book by Danny Meyer called Setting The Table. It's actually about the hospitality industry and how the rules of client service can apply to all kinds of different industries. I've always thought there were great parallels between luxury hospitality industries to how we should aspire to operate in the legal industry. So that's what I recommend to your listeners. On the business front, I do read a lot of fiction. And so far this year, a recent favorite is a fiction book called Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow, which of all things is about video games, not something that's a particular interest of mine. But a really interesting book that I would recommend.

Ed: Good recommendations. And Danny Meyer, I think is famous for setting up Shake Shack. So next question for you. And this is quite an interesting one actually from previous guests. What was your first job?

Andrea: Yes, I always love hearing about this from colleagues and peers. Before joining the workforce full-time, I guess technically my very first job was as a babysitter in my neighbourhood. It was not just sort of word of mouth that I got a client, babysitting clients, but in fact, I guess I had an inclination for marketing and advertising from an early age because I actually advertised my babysitting business in our neighborhood mail room and that was part of acquiring and securing new clients. So a successful babysitting operation was my very first job.

Ed: Starting off young. 

Andrea: Indeed.

Ed: What makes you happy at work?

Andrea: Yeah, great question. So you know, obviously, there are many things that make me happy at work as evidenced by my long tenure. But I think keeping on the theme of career progression, something that makes me really happy at work is just sort of seeing things progress and move things forward. You know, observing colleagues accomplishing, you know, difficult things, acquiring new skills, you know, really being able to see the impact of your contributions and your team's contributions. And knowing you've added value is something that makes me happy at work.

Ed: That's a very lovely answer. What are you listening to at the moment? And that could be maybe a podcast, an audiobook or a playlist on Spotify, for example.

Andrea: Yeah. So, well, besides the Passle podcast, which I shared with you, I've been listening to from the very beginning. I am a big consumer of podcasts. I tend to listen to a lot of news and business ones, usually during my morning workout or on my commute into the office. But kind of nights and weekends I tend to reserve or light or fair. And a few of my favorite podcasts are Armchair Expert,  I really like This American Life, which is an NPR podcast and then a really fun one that I've been enjoying lately is called The Toast.

Ed: I've just noted all of those down and I will definitely take a listen. Last one for you from the quick fire round. Where is your favorite place to visit and why?

Andrea: Yeah. So right now, I definitely have summer vacation on the brain. So I would have to say it is a location in the mid-coast of Maine that I've been visiting many summers. It's a location that's fairly drivable from where I live in the Boston area and it's my favorite place to visit because it's kind of just the quintessential New England summer spot. You know, there's great hiking and sailing. You can eat lobster rolls and blueberry pie and sort of all the good summer things. So a definite favourite.

Ed: Sounds fantastic. You had me at lobster roll straight away. I'm sold on that one. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast, it's been an absolute pleasure. I really appreciate your time.

Andrea: Thanks again for having me.

Ed: We'll speak very soon.