James: Hi, and welcome to the Passle CMO Series podcast. In today's episode, we explore the essential role of business development managers, BDMs, in launching new programs and the most effective ways CMOs can lead and support them. Our guest today is Karen Wilcox, former head of marketing at Taylor English and previous marketing director at Kilpatrick. Karen learned her trade at two of the big four consulting firms, KPMG and Deloitte. Karen is now president of Marketing Speaks. Karen joins the series to share her extensive experience in supporting BDMs. We're going to focus on the best ways to gauge attorney interest, identify implementation hurdles, and develop communication plans that ensure any new programs are successful. 

Charlie: The CMO Series podcast is brought to you by Passle. Passle makes thought leadership simple, scalable, and effective, so professional services firms can stay front of mind with their clients and prospects when it matters most. Find out more and request a demo at Passle.net. Now back to the podcast. 

James: Hi, Karen.

Karen: Hey, James. How are you? 

James: Doing great. Doing great. Okay, so let's kick off with the first question. So with BDMs, Karen, can you talk us through the role of business development manager? What part those BDMs play in the success of any marketing or BD practice?

Karen: So I view the BDMs as being, if we were in a consumer products world, as being the brand manager. So if we use Coca-Cola as an example, the BDMs would be running Sprite, be running Diet Coke, be running Coke Zero type of thing. And because of that, I think they have a lot of information because they're embedded with their practices. They're running the brand, they're running the sales programs for those practices or for that geography. And the information that they have running around in their heads is incredibly valuable for any time we're getting ready to roll out a new program or trying to keep a program moving even after the rollout because they have that day-to-day experience with that practice and with that practice's audience.

James: Yeah, and that comes to my next question, I guess, which is, I think I know what you're going to say, but when it comes to planning any new initiative or changing any program, how much involvement should BDMs have in the early stages of that planning?

Karen: So I think it's going to vary depending on what the program is and what information you're actually going to need from the BDMs. And I'll give an example. If you're rolling out any type of knowledge management software, whether it be a CRM program or an experience platform or anything where there's going to be a reporting piece to it where you need to be able to pull information out to make decisions or you're using it in a sales standpoint and you're pulling out information for your potential client to be able to make a decision. Pulling the BDMs in sooner than later is very helpful because what they can help you develop is what's your end game? What reports do you need? How do you need to get that information out of the system? That will help you in identifying which technology platform makes the most sense for you to use, what information do you need to collect. It will also identify differences between the practices and what they need. If we take the sales example, what the employment attorneys are going to need to pull out of an experience platform is going to be very different from what the IP attorneys may need to pull out from the sales standpoint. And you want to understand those little nuances. So being able to have that information at the very beginning stages can really help you make good decisions on which platform you have and how you set up that platform.

If it's something more like messaging platforms or redoing the visuals of the brand, I'd probably pull them in a little bit later, and it would be when I have something for them to react to. So the agency has already come up with three or four versions of what the visuals might look like. Pulling them in at that point can be helpful because you can start judging taste when it comes to the visuals. No one wants the experience that I had one time where I pulled the BDMs in after we had made all of our decisions, and I had one BDM announce in front of the entire room how much she hated all of the visuals. If I had pulled her in a little bit earlier or pulled the BDMs a little bit earlier, I would have gotten an inkling that she wasn't happy with where we were going. May not have changed the decisions, but I could have handled the whole communication process differently, handled her challenges that she had with the visuals. I know much more on a one-to-one situation than in front of a room with the entire team. So that's another reason for bringing them in is to get them on board or to find out what challenges that they may have.

James: And I guess that's it. I mean, ultimately, it's nuances, it's personalities. And I would imagine that all BDMs are not born equal. Yeah. And what they do have, obviously, is strong connections with the attorneys. How can business development managers effectively gauge initial attorney interest to a new program or technology, and how can that help you, gauge, I suppose, in the long term and help you as a CMO see how that's going to be received by attorneys?

Karen: So I think there's two ways. There's one that's just the knowledge that they're going to have because they're embedded in the practice, especially those BDMs that have been with that practice for three, four, five, six, seven years. They know their attorneys. They're going to know what their preferences are. They're going to be able to give you a wealth of knowledge. The other way that they can be helpful in collecting that information is pulling them into some of the pre-launch activities early on so that they can start socializing, whether it be new technology, whether it be new messaging platform, whatever it is, can start socializing a little bit early, get some initial feedback from their attorneys, and then provide that feedback loop for them to be able to give you that feedback. Because sometimes you get a surprise, an attorney you think would be okay with the change, you find out it's not. And the sooner in the process you can find those pieces out, the better. The other thing that can be really helpful with is helping to identify who might be attorney champions for the change, because you'll want that as well, because it's not always the practice group leader that you need as a champion, which you do, but if you can have some of the practice group members also being champions of the change, that can be really helpful.

James: So essentially, they're a bridge between the attorneys and marketing in many ways. 

Karen: Yes, absolutely. And that bridge is incredibly important because when we're not embedded in the practice, which is what happens when we become directors and CMOs, we don't always have that day-to-day insight into personalities, into how do they do their work? How do they accomplish their work? How do they go to market? Because we just don't have the bandwidth, especially at the big firms. We don't have the bandwidth to know all those little nuances, but the BDMs will know it for their practice area.

James: I guess where they stand on the bridge is kind of important too. Have you got examples of projects where BDMs have played a key role in the success of that project, implementation or technology? 

Karen: Yeah, I've got one in particular that comes to mind. We rolled out a CRM package, fairly decent-sized law firm, and one of the BDMs was really, really able to get her practice leader on board with the CRM and the importance of the CRM. And he became a big champion of it and brought it up in every practice group leader meeting. She didn't have to do it. He did it. And he made it very clear that if your information wasn't in the CRM, then it was not going to be used for decision-making purposes. And that practice had a successful rollout with that CRM because she did the work on the front end on getting her practice leader on board with it and having him be a true champion. That was hugely helpful. Another way, it's a little bit more subtle, but it can be really helpful. No matter where that BDM is on that bridge of buy-in on the change that's getting ready to happen, if they can at least have a positive attitude about it in all meetings, that can go a long way. And where I've had the BDMs, even the ones I knew who weren't necessarily on board with the change, but were willing to be a team player, who in public were always very positive about it, said the right things, did the right things, made sure the body language was the right way. That was hugely helpful as well.

James: Yeah, and I guess that's it. So essentially, you're enabling your BDMs to, in many ways, empower, or you're enabling and empowering them to get the attorneys to do the things you quite like them to do, right?

Karen: Right, right. Because they're the ones that are going to be in the meetings. More than likely, your project lead for that particular initiative is not going to be in all the team meetings. They'll maybe be in the first one where they're talking about, this is what we're going to do, but they're not going to be in the follow-up meetings. So you need that BDM to be on board so that they can do that continual, hey, have you done whatever it is they need to do and remind them of it, remind them of the importance of it and be the champion of it. Because change doesn't happen after just one meeting. It's methodical, you continually have to talk about whatever it is you're trying to change and why it's important until the habits are important. 

James: Yeah. And why that change is of interest and of use to the BDM, I'm guessing. What are the common implementation hurdles? Where can you trip up? As far as CMOs go, where can you trip up or screw up that means that you end up not having your BDMs on side or some BDMs on side, which can blow a hole in your plans?

Karen: So there's two areas where I think can be a challenge for the BDMs to do implementation. The first one is when their leadership is not on board, even if the BDM is on board with the change, their leadership is not on board. It puts them in a really tough situation because they have to have a very good working relationship with their practice leadership or their geography leadership. And so when their leadership's not on board, it's really important for the CMO or the project lead to come in and be very supportive of that BDM because that BDM may not be the best messenger now for that particular initiative. You may need to move it up to where now it's the CMO doing all the messaging about that initiative. Or maybe it's the chair of the firm or the managing partner if it was a decision that was made by the executive committee and pull that BDM out of that sticky situation they find themselves in where they need to maintain a very good working relationship with their leadership and their leadership and then are at opposing ends of the scale on the change. If you don't have that BDM, that support, they're not going to die on that hill for you. They're going to tend to lean towards what their partners want more so than what the CMO wants. I think you have to acknowledge that and then give them that support that they need when that happens.

James: Yeah. I mean, that's exactly right. Because otherwise you're leaving them between a rock and a hard place. And the power in a law firm sits with the lawyers. I mean, it always does and probably always will. 

Karen: Yeah. Oh, I was going to say, there's another area real quick that I think BDMs need some support in is the volume of work that they already have on their plate. And when we're asking them to pull out change, we are adding volume to that. So where can we give them support? Do we need to bring in an outside person to help for 60, 90 days, be project lead and help manage some of the functional side of the change, some of the administrative side of the change, those types of things as well. Because even if the BDM's bought in and their practice is bought in, it's still got to fit in with all the other things they're trying to get done.

James: Yeah, absolutely. And what are any other key kind of tactics, strategies that you found that help BDMs contribute, you know, and do their job most effectively without kind of getting stuck, either just overwhelmed or kind of, as I say, stuck between that rock and a hard place?

Karen: Yes, also giving them the information that they need to communicate properly to their members. Giving them talking points. If you've identified where some sticking points may be, going ahead and giving them the language needed or the reason why this decision was made that specifically addresses those sticking points. Points it does not help a BDM when they have to go in and just say well the chair said we were going to do it so we were going to do it that doesn't help with buy-in they need to they need to have the reasons why the change is happening especially if they have brought up this is going to be a sticking point with in my group help them come up with the answer that they have, when that objection is raised so help them overcome the objections 

James: right and I suppose. Even from our perspective as an outside supplier, outside provider of services, we've seen that. If you don't get the buy-in of BDMs, if you don't respect them and show them they're involved and it's in their interest to do something, then it's going to be difficult for them to be able to support you. Ultimately, it's all about change management, right? 

Karen: Right. 

James: So to finish off, you know, what's your one piece of advice when it comes to a CMO stepping into that change management role?

Karen: Understand the firm you're at today. Throw everything out about the firms you've been at the past. Understand the firm you are at today. Understand the politics. Understand how information flows. Understand who the influencers are because they don't always have a title. And listen to your BDMs when they come and say, hey, this could be a challenge and I'm going to need some help. But understand the firm. Just really take the time to understand the firm you're at today and how they react to change and who can help you and who might not help you. It doesn't matter what you've done at other places as what's happening at the firm you're at today. 

James: Yeah. So it's all about mapping influence ultimately. 

Karen: Yes. 

James: Who knows what and who knows how to get somebody to do what you want them to do. It's nuanced and it's complicated, but ultimately it comes down to respect. 

Karen: That, and I would say it also comes down to understanding, is it the right time for that change in that firm? That change may need to happen. We may all agree on that, but there may be some other things that need to happen first.

James: Absolutely. 

Karen: And understand that as well. 

James: Brilliant. All comes down to change management. That's wonderful. And now time for some quick questions. Number one, what are you listening to or reading right now? 

Karen: So I've been listening to the podcast, American Scandal. He goes through different events that have happened in American history. Some of them are pretty close to now and some of them are way back in the past and talks about the impact they had on American history. It's really kind of interesting hearing about things that happened when I grew up that I just wasn't paying attention to.

James: That's cool. We'll put a link for that onto the post. And I love this one. What was your first job?

Karen: So my first job was working for Rec League Baseball in the small town that I grew up in. So I did everything from concession stands to talking the little white lines to scorekeeping. 

James: Brilliant. Personally or professionally, what is one piece of technology that you can't live without?

Karen: I am a huge fan of Notion. I run both my personal life and my professional life through it. I mean, everything, including my grocery list is in Notion now.

James: Brilliant. Is that right? Okay. Again, we'll put the link in because I've never heard of Notion, so I'm going to use that.  And finally, do you have one small habit that you think might be able to help me or our listeners?

Karen: So I don't handle clutter well, and it causes me to focus on the clutter if I have clutter around. So one of the things I've started doing is picking up my house every morning. It's just part of my routine with eating breakfast and that type of thing. And it has just really helped me be able to stay focused when I work from home knowing that the house has already been picked up.

James: There you go, brilliant. Well, thank you very much Karen, it's been absolutely wonderful speaking with you.

Karen: It's great to be here today James.